Critiquing a Stuck-Dealer Hand

[rakbeater]

(03-28-2016, 12:40 PM)rdwrites Wrote:  I just consider the whole scenario pretty rare to achieve and I have no strategy where I would give up a trick early on with plans to run trump out abd then run down a second suit, in oher words, setting up the second suit.

Not saying it isn't successful when done, just saying I consider it a rare event to get such attention in analysis.

It depends on what "rare" means to you I guess.  It definitely happens often enough in games that you should be aware of it as a strategy to play with and against.

[rdwrites]

rare means that as I recall trump was seldom run out to be able to run a second suit down. But it's been years since I've played. Certainly I have a formula for coming down and running out trump when I can and conditions warrant it, and also a strategy for bleeding trump when condoitions warrant, so I (and bot logic) actively seek to no trump game as possible.

However, I just don't recall getting to no trump more than seldom, and then one must have a second suit to run out, which makes it all the rarer.

On the other hand, as I get into playing more now maybe I will see it more often.

[mickmackusa]

(03-28-2016, 12:40 PM)rdwrites Wrote:  I am referring to what you just described. It is prevalent here in analyses from multiple posters, as an important consideration of a hand.
What that describes is what is done in Hearts, although very different strategy involved. In that strategy of attempting to run the hand out and capture all the points, early on small loser cards (from the attempted runner's perspective) are led or played with hopes that the largest cards you are missing are played as players try to get rid of their large loser cards (from a non-runner's perspective). And hope that happens without a point thrown on it.

I'm saying I have never evaluated or played a hand from a perspective of attempting to run out the hand with basically winning cards after trump are all played, whcih is a Hearts running the hand out type strategy. Involved in that presumably would be leading a small card to let someone take a trick with a large card, say a fourth ace, so that you come down in second suit with three aces and whatever tens you have etc etc.

I just consider the whole scenario pretty rare to achieve and I have no strategy where I would give up a trick early on with plans to run trump out abd then run down a second suit, in oher words, setting up the second suit.

Not saying it isn't successful when done, just saying I consider it a rare event to get such attention in analysis.

The only criteria in my opinion is winning the bid with a hand that can pull the points needed with the bid. And of course playing strongly throughout the hand attempting to pull more than 30 points.

I pull remaining trump as soon as I compute I can and conditions are right in who all is cuttung what suits. There is an implicit our team has some good cards if those conditions include opponents cutting us, but for example Easts play may indicate East is good in Diamonds and West is cutting it. I would want North leading non-counter Diamonds to East and let that play out or an indication we are out of Diamonds before I would pull the plug on running down trump for example. We have to get those Diamonds out of hands anyway.

So I'm just saying it's never even entered into my analysis whereas on this site it's an important factor in evaluating a hand. Just commenting on how different that is.

I think you are describing an even more advanced/complicated gambit -- we can also talk about that.
My strategy doesn't include sacrificing any cards to set up a side suit.  I was only speaking of playing newly empowered/good Tens (or Kings and Queens).

One step more difficult and perhaps more risky is to fish out the remaining Aces of a suit to set up all of the Aces Tens Kings etc and do a bulk run down of a given suit.
This, I suppose, in essence is Sandbagging because winning Aces are being temporarily withheld.
That strategy may be less optimal if there is a chance of beating those "remaining Aces" with an Ace or trump versus the fishing out tactic.

Did I just make sense?  If not, I can do a better job of explaining myself.

[rdwrites]

no, you made sense. There's not more you can do than that to "set up" a second suit. Other than that it's pure chance whether you have high cards to come down with second suit after trump are all out.

Of course the other possibility is a second suit so long that you're the only one left with them, so you have a dominant trump suit that can force out all the trump and a longer second suit than anyone else has in that suit, essentially two suited. Well yeah, if you get dealt something like that then you can lead right down the hand and it's all yours.

The only issue is whether the "set up second suit" involves Heart like play in leading smaller cards hoping to get all the missing large cards out so that the remaining ones are all good once trump is gone. Then getting trump out before that suit is led much and cut. I've never done that or seen it, sounds like you don't play that way either. So I'm not sure what setting up a second suit would consist of.

Concerning the other possibly advanced strategies I mentioned, yes, all of those would have higher precedence than trying to force trump out even if you could in my opinion.

[rakbeater]

This is such a complicated topic that I'm sure I cannot do it total justice in this post, but it goes back to counting tricks before you even bid. You don't need a super long or strong side suit to take advantage of running out the trump.  If you have an 8 card suit, the odds are pretty good that you can run out the trump and make certain non-trump cards good.  It could be an entire side suit, or it could be 2 tens from 2 different 5 card side suits.  

In order to be able to do this, you usually need to have some side suit aces that you will save (not play)  in order to get back into the lead after you give up the lead forcing trump aces out.  I call them "stoppers", because they allow you to stop the opposing team and put you back in the lead.  There are other scenarios where you may be void in a suit or only have a singleton, and you can use trump as your stoppers, but then you need to have a longer trump suit.   These types of hands are relatively easy to read and easy to predict the number of tricks you can take as the bidder, especially when playing against players who don't understand what you are trying to do.  They will play right into your hands, and this happens more than you would think.

For example:

   

In this hand I would count 6 trump tricks, 2 diamond tricks and 0 or 1 spade tricks.

My lead would be 

That would get an   out, and if my partner doesn't have the other   I will take the lead when I trump in on hearts or when I get in on diamonds, I will lead another   and force out the final    .

By the time I get the lead again, I will run out the trump (I always have a count of how many trump cards have been played and how many are remaining) until no one has trump in their hands but me.  If I have any loser spades or diamonds, I will play them, to force out those aces. until when I take the lead, I can play my good   's.   It is far more complicated than that, because there are things you have to look at during game play, but that is a deeper lesson for a different time.

If you are having difficulty seeing how that plays out, I will present an easier hand to see....the strong side suit:



Here you lead your   and get the trump ace out, then you run out trump, get out the   if they aren't already played and you run down your side suit after you lose your   cards so you can end up with the last trick.

[rdwrites]

ok, I see you are getting out the high cards of your secondary suits after trump are all out (except for yours). Yes, this is way I play, I save the secondary aces as I have posted previously, but if suit is led I take the trick, and I do count trump and come down if it's to my advantage. But if partner is cutting it's not to my advantage, and if one opponent is cutting their partners aces it's not to my advantage yet ( force some opponents trump out on their own aces).

Is it not that hard to run trump out? Leading small trump every time you get into the lead certainly flushes them out, but between opponents taking those trump tricks and their share of secondary suit tricks with the trump out, it's really a tossup who will get most out of it. I think problem is I and my bots play hanging on to stopper aces and forcing trump out in various ways and when everyone is doing that, it's much less clear who will get into lead and run some remaining secondary suit cards out. Obviously the player with 8 trump has an edge on it.