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World of Card Games supports Hand Animator format
#21
I used the replayers because I was playing in huge multi table tournaments that lasted 8 hours or more, so when I went back to analyze, it was important to see how previous hands had been played and what the environment was at the table prior to a hand I wanted to analyze. Even in pinochle, I think there is a difference in analysis from an isolated hand compared to a hand put in context of an entire game.

To be clear: I would want the names of everyone at the table in my email, but not in the replayer. However, on a 1-10 scale, this is a 3 to me, so I don't want to draw too much attention to an issue that is not really important to me.
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#22
(08-21-2015, 11:29 PM)mickmackusa Wrote:  Regarding the use of poker replayers, I seldom used them.  I found them unnecessary because the raw notation was simple enough to quickly read and analyze.  Comments were included in the notation, and while sometimes it was comical, usually it was rude/nonsensical.  When speaking to Marek from PlayOK, he wasn't convinced that the Power Pinochle Hand Animator was necessary either.  He referenced Bridge notation (like you might see in the newspaper) and said that he felt that was sufficient.  Raw pinochle notation is very difficult to read.  The Hand Animator is not just for aesthetic purposes.  Because of the important of signifying cards used in meld, as well as the flow of the play round, animating the notation yields a highly functional presentation which leaves raw notation in the dust.

I suppose the point I want to make is that the decision to develop an animator/replayer depends heavily on how a game is played and if the raw notation is easily read.  The first action is to develop a raw notation for a given game.  After refining the notation, so that all vital information is provided and unnecessary data is omitted, step back and ask yourself if the notation is comprehensible.

Yes, I agree that the raw game logs are difficult to understand, and the Hand Animator is definitely a valuable tool.  I don't know who originally had the idea, but...damn, what a good idea!

(10-31-2014, 07:22 AM)TigreLXIX Wrote:  Good news everyone!  PlayOK has added game logs to their online pinochle game.  During play, you can click the "History" tab (toward the bottom right above the chat area) and click the PBN button.  The game log will open in a popup window.  After the game, you can access the game log from your player stats page (click your user name from the list of users in the lobby or game room, then "Full Stats").  Select the "Games" tab on your stats page.  You'll notice a link labeled "txt" in the result column...click it to open the log.  (It looks as though this feature was added on 10/28, so games before that will not have a link.

Here is a link to my most recent game log.  As you can see, the logs contain a lot of valuable information, including bid history and melds.  They should be really helpful.

P.S. - it would be really cool if someone could develop a program that re-plays the hands (or at least displays the logs with pictures instead of text).

Oh yeah...now I remember.  Big Grin
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#23
I don't even know how to deal with those comments.
I am speechless.

...no, I'd better not be speechless. This is effectively a public record, so I'd better get the facts out. Marek (@ PlayOK) and I had exchanged correspondence (initiated by me, before TigreLXIX's post) to discuss adding the Hand History and Hand Animator features as a joint venture between our sites. In my first request, I suggested a simple format for notation. Fortunately, he had something better already in place for his Bridge game. *this explains the "PBN" in his notation -- "PlayOK Bridge Notation". At the time of TigreLXIX's post, I was already waste-deep in the secret development of the first version of the Hand Animator . After considerable development time, trying to marry the PBN with my Hand Animator, I found that I could make my coding much simpler if I modified the incoming notation. This is how the Power Pinochle Notation (PPN) came into existence. Currently, only WoCG exports the required PPN for the Hand Animator. I don't want to see PlayOK left out of the Hand Animator program, especially because it was an integral part of its construction. I will contact Marek again today, to see if he has time to convert his notation to mine, or if I need to convert it locally @ Power Pinochle.
It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing all your life. -- Mickey Mantle
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#24
Quick Quiz Question: Why did PlayOK make the hand histories available to their players?
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#25
I will try to address everything that was brought up here ---

1) I like the idea of adding all 4 player names in the subject line, so I will do this. I think most players will not object to this. As someone pointed out, it is possible (but unlikely) that a player would do video capture of an entire game with the intent of publicly humiliating another player. I think most people would not be deterred from playing if they realize this is possible.

2) I also like the idea of delivering entire game histories, so I will add this.

3) Delivering game/hand histories by email is an experiment. Until I can be sure that it does not overburden my email service, I won't be adding automatic delivery; it must be requested. I will have to change the way it's done, since people use Shift-P in chat, and I've had one player write to me who was confused about why they got the hand history Blush   I had considered that this might happen, but thought it unlikely enough to be worth the risk!

4) I've been in many games where people address each other both by their handle and by their personal name. So I think it's not a great idea to include chats in the history, if people are really concerned about being identified. Given that you can easily copy the entire chat log at the end of a game from WoCG's "chat log", this functionality is available already for people who want to capture "teaching" comments. Despite my misgivings, I can see that displaying chats in the hand animator may be helpful (e.g. displaying a comment about what to bid at a particular time). However, I will not add chats until they can be displayed in the hand animator. And I am really not clear whether the benefits would make the drawbacks worth it.

5) As mentioned by Tigre, it's easy enough to set up a private table where a game can be paused. I don't see the point in dividing up the tables into beginner/advanced categories - certainly not without more players, and there are currently precious few.

6) I would consider adding an option to set up "expert" tables where there is no "Show Melds" button, and maybe where the points table is removed from the meld view (not sure if this objectionable). Again - with only a few Pinochle players, the work to do this is not justified. And it would make it even harder to get a game started (I believe mostly beginners are currently playing the game).

Please be aware that the game is not carved in stone. It's a relatively new game.. I've already made a few changes based on feedback from players here and elsewhere. So if you feel strongly about something, make it known, and I will add it to my to-do list if it makes sense. But also be aware that Pinochle is just one game on the site, it currently gets about 8 players at a time max, and I have a lot of features and other games to add. So I can't put all my time into fine-tuning Pinochle.

BTW, while I find the comparison with a poker game site edifying, I suspect that a poker site makes far more revenue than a site like WoCG where revenue only comes from a single ad. They probably have more than one developer working on the site, too. So trying to compete with a poker site on features is never going to happen. That doesn't mean I can't or won't add features - I'm just explaining why you won't see every little last thing implemented.
Play Pinochle at World of Card Games!
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#26
(08-22-2015, 12:05 AM)rakbeater Wrote:  Quick Quiz Question:    Why did PlayOK make the hand histories available to their players?

I'm new here but I had the impression that it was at the request of Power Pinochle admin(s)? Am I mistaken?
Play Pinochle at World of Card Games!
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#27
(08-22-2015, 10:30 AM)marya Wrote:  Delivering game/hand histories by email is an experiment. Until I can be sure that it does not overburden my email service, I won't be adding automatic delivery; it must be requested. I will have to change the way it's done, since people use Shift-P in chat, and I've had one player write to me who was confused about why they got the hand history Blush   I had considered that this might happen, but thought it unlikely enough to be worth the risk!

In hindsight, I imagine [Shift]+P is probably a pretty common keystroke at the game tables, as in "P!!!!  You incompetent idiot!!!  What the hell were you thinking?!?!?"  Does this keystroke send the latest hand history at any time during the game, or is it only when the hand summary is displayed?  Perhaps you could change the required keystroke to [Ctrl]+[Shift]+P?

Another option would be to add a button on the hand summary and/or game summary screens to deliver the history, but it sounds like you don't want to make the option publicly known at this point...so that might not be an option.
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#28
Shift-P is only interpreted this way when the subtotals are displayed. People don't usually linger on that. I do plan to make it "official" in the near future, with a link or button, but wanted to keep the feature hidden until a few players actually used it, so I could firm up how it worked.
Play Pinochle at World of Card Games!
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#29
(08-22-2015, 10:32 AM)marya Wrote:  
(08-22-2015, 12:05 AM)rakbeater Wrote:  Quick Quiz Question:    Why did PlayOK make the hand histories available to their players?

I'm new here but I had the impression that it was at the request of Power Pinochle admin(s)? Am I mistaken?

WINNER!!!!
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#30
Marya,

The email HH I would get from Poker sites, had to be requested. Definitely don't make it automatic!! These are just ideas, please don't think we expect everything to be done ASAP! I am hoping to drive more players to your site though.
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