Posts: 642
Threads: 111
Joined: Apr 2011
Reputation:
10
Ok, so you have a biddable hand with a trump suit but you also have aces around. Answer these questions with strong logic supporting your opinions.
You are opening the bidding with a biddable hand AND aces around.
What are YOUR minimum hand requirements for not showing aces with a 51 bid and opening 50? This would be the cutoff point for you...anything less, and you open 51.
Please use the newly accepted SHAN when describing hands:
SHAN = Standard Hand Assessment Notation
XX-X-X
Meld - Length of Trump - Estimated Trick Count
example. 35-7-6
Posts: 834
Threads: 112
Joined: Jul 2012
Reputation:
80
It comes down to the offense/support trick counts, which more or less means trump length, hand shape, and sometimes trump texture.
With any 9 card trump suit, I'm asking for meld...but this also means my offensive count must be notably higher than my support count.
With an 8 card suit, I'll probably only consider showing the aces with 8-4-4-4.
Second point, tho: how much total meld do I have...and do I think partner will understand a sequence such as (my bids in italics):
50-51-54-55-56-(58 or 59)
As I noted...30 meld is better for bidding slowly than 20, because the auction might well be at 60 or 65 by your second bid. Can't show 20 any more.
So...if I ask for meld, with a reasonable support hand, can I catch up and show it on my 2nd turn? If not, then that's a factor in starting with a meld bid...the aces, or the total meld, is a separate issue.
I tend to give the aces with a poor-ish trump suit (no better than ATTxxxx)...that's probably the #1 characteristic. For shapes...7-5-4-4, 7-5-5-3 because those are both semi-balanced, with a fairly even offense/support trick count. 7-6-5-2 and 7-6-6-1...it's a stiff ace, yeah, but I really, really hate these hand patterns. They are HARD to play. And maybe 1/3 to 1/2 the time, partner won't name your short suit...great! Trump length with a ruffing value.
Posts: 642
Threads: 111
Joined: Apr 2011
Reputation:
10
(05-28-2013, 03:41 PM)ToreadorElder Wrote: With any 9 card trump suit, I'm asking for meld...but this also means my offensive count must be notably higher than my support count.
With an 8 card suit, I'll probably only consider showing the aces with 8-4-4-4.
So with a 9 card trump suit, which is going to be at worst, with 4 aces for aces around, a 9 trick hand, is a must ask for meld. You only need 3 trick in support and you have 31 to keep the opponents from saving their meld.
In the scenario of an 8 card suit, with a only 4 aces for aces around, we have an 8 trick hand, but that depends on the hand's D/S (for information on what D/S is see this thead:
http://www.powerpinochle.com/forum/showt...hp?tid=489)
What D/S changes this minimum 8 trick hand from a 50 bid to a 51 bid or vice versa?
Posts: 163
Threads: 19
Joined: Jan 2013
Reputation:
24
If I am playing with a partner who also plays 35-7-6, I will always bid 50.
There was a discussion here about bidding a hand that had -20- meld and Aces Around. The consensus was to generally show the 20.
Here I have 35-7-6. I am the opening bidder, I am not making a save bid. I am promising a marriage. I will bid again so partner can bid =without= a marriage.
Rick Hall
Posts: 834
Threads: 112
Joined: Jul 2012
Reputation:
80
Just because you CAN bid 50, doesn't mean you SHOULD, Richard. And even if you open 51 or 52 here, partner SHOULD give meld even if he doesn't have a marriage. I will grant: if you think he won't...BUT, that he will do so if you ask for meld...certainly, that's a factor to consider. I'd have to say, I wouldn't put a great deal of weight onto it, because it's not that common. Here, the risk is that partner's got a hand as good as yours, which is reasonably likely (we're saying you have a good support hand, and mediocre trump suit). You're fine if he plays it; you have trump support and tricks. And he can have quite a bit more. Your major risk in opening 50, is getting behind in the information exchange. Consider this auction:
50 (you) - 52- 53 - 65
Don't you wish you'd given 20? Another auction that's similar:
50 (you) - 51 - 52 - 54
OK, you can give your 20...but LHO has heard about his partner's 20 meld. Had you given 20, the auction probably goes 52-53-60-pass.
The art of bidding is in balancing risk vs. reward, of minimizing the risk of a Big Mistake, and getting it right as often as you can. The auction above is not uncommon...but does require several actions to take place, so it can't be overly likely. Conversely, the risk that partner will have meld to give, but not a marriage, is also pretty low.
Posts: 642
Threads: 111
Joined: Apr 2011
Reputation:
10
Is 35-7-6 first number meld or adjusted meld. Forgive me if this was answered in another post, but I've been crazy busy the last month or so.
Posts: 163
Threads: 19
Joined: Jan 2013
Reputation:
24
06-28-2013, 05:39 PM
(This post was last modified: 06-28-2013, 05:42 PM by richardpaulhall.)
Meld and 2 1/2 points per trinck
But a 50 bid shows 35 in meld and tricks. I've given meld.
Rick Hall
Posts: 642
Threads: 111
Joined: Apr 2011
Reputation:
10
That changes my opinion. What is the point of saying 35-7-6 and duplicating the estimated trick takers in the numeric hand description?
I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't be opening 50 without a minimum of 6 trick takers regardless of meld, so why make it more complicated than it needs to be and make the minimum a hand with 20 meld - 7 length of trump - 6 trick takers?
20-7-6 is the same and easier for beginners.
Posts: 163
Threads: 19
Joined: Jan 2013
Reputation:
24
Because if you have more tricks you don't need a much meld.
A run, a few scraps, 7 trump, and 6 winners is a go.
But 10 meld, 7 trump, and 10 winners is also an opening 50.
(06-30-2013, 11:04 AM)rakbeater Wrote: That changes my opinion. What is the point of saying 35-7-6 and duplicating the estimated trick takers in the numeric hand description?
I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't be opening 50 without a minimum of 6 trick takers regardless of meld, so why make it more complicated than it needs to be and make the minimum a hand with 20 meld - 7 length of trump - 6 trick takers?
20-7-6 is the same and easier for beginners.
Rick Hall
Posts: 834
Threads: 112
Joined: Jul 2012
Reputation:
80
Precisely, and with those parameters you may have no other bid.
You might have, say:
            
That's 12 meld counting the royal marriage.. This is a huge hand, tho; 2 strong 7 card suits, and an ace at risk, so the offensive tick count is massively higher than the defensive. And what else can you do? You can't give 20; you only have 10, and as dummy you likely won't win all 7 aces you have. Pass? Ugh! It might be right, but it's way too conservative for me.
There's also the converse: when you have way more meld, but not enough tricks...say,
    
The diamond suit is too ratty to really be a source of tricks for you, but it should help you control the trump suit, so this is probably a legit 5 tricks. Change 2 low diamonds to low clubs/hearts, and there's a good chance this is a 4 trick hand.
So, they're not the same at all. Each aspect has a meaning independent of the others.
|
