Why did he....

[ToreadorElder]

Situation: the score is 465-341; you're losing. Partner, in first seat, passes. RHO bids 53, which takes the bid.

Partner melds aces and a marriage.

This partner does give aces bids...so what's going on? Why did he pass, and...roughly speaking...what does his hand look like?

[mickmackusa]

(04-19-2013, 05:38 PM)ToreadorElder Wrote:  Situation: the score is 465-341; you're losing. Partner, in first seat, passes. RHO bids 53, which takes the bid.

Partner melds aces and a marriage.

This partner does give aces bids...so what's going on? Why did he pass, and...roughly speaking...what does his hand look like?

Is Partner hoping for the dealer to be Stuck? and Partner has a well-rounded defensive hand?

[rakbeater]

So the bidding goes:

Partner - 51, 53, pass, pass, pass?

[mickmackusa]

(04-20-2013, 09:23 AM)rakbeater Wrote:  So the bidding goes:

Partner - 51, 53, pass, pass, pass?

...I see if overlooked the Partner gave aces-bid.
Thanks for the clarification, rak.

If it went 51, 53, pass, pass, pass, then the Stick The Dealer option is gone.
I shall change my stance to Stick the Meld Bidder.
I will still go with the Set The Opposition tactic and assume a Strong Defensive / Balanced hand; otherwise perhaps merely a Support Only hand.
If Partner had meld, he probably would have given it.
If Partner had a trump suit, he probably wouldn't have given the aces bid.

As a side note, if my team was 35 from a win (in range to coast out) and the opposition was 160 points from the finish line, I probably wouldn't make a 20-meld bid after first seat saved the Dealer. I suppose this makes me a non-aggressive player.

[ToreadorElder]

NO.

Partner DID NOT give aces, partner passed.

mick came close the first time. I read partner as defensively oriented...balanced, quite probably with a couple extra aces. He's playing the combination, tho: dealer may get stuck, opponents may not have 20 total or just barely enough to make the board...or, even if they have something like 30 meld, that our side will pull 31.

As a side note, if my team was 35 from a win (in range to coast out) and the opposition was 160 points from the finish line, I probably wouldn't make a 20-meld bid after first seat saved the Dealer. I suppose this makes me a non-aggressive player.

No, it makes you too afraid of the negative possibilities. I understand: you're worried that partner will have junk (or no trump suit), and you figure to save. But let the opponents name trump, and your chances to save drop considerably. If the score is 465-100, and if your hand is really weak (maybe 1 likely, and 1 uncertain ace... say, for the uncertain ace)...then your position is justifiable because *you can't go set* with this score. If your hand's rather good AND balanced, I'd rather bid. Say you have:



OK, it seems comfortable to pass and pull 20...but give declarer any 2-suiter and this hand falls apart.

Plus, you have tricks for partner. And look what has to happen...East opens 50 (say), you bid 52. For things to go wrong, West has to pass...then East has to pass whatever North does. There's considerable pressure on West, in particular, to bid...and quite a bit, even on East, if West passes. Give North in ANY suit, with 1 other ace...your side will likely make. Can East risk that?

Finally, there's a significant difference between 465 and 480. 465 requires 20 meld, AND 20 trick points. At our 465-341, say the opponents take it cheap-ish and score 65 while shutting us out. They're at 406. We better get some meld...because if our side doesn't make the board, they don't have to throw the shutout at us. Now we're in trouble...it's double bidder out.

If we have 480, they have to throw the shutout...case closed. Granted, if I have 18+, I know they'll have to throw it. It's not safe to go overly passive, tho, without at least a 3-hand lead *before* double bidder out. Double bidder out means about 435+ for each side...and figure 'average hands' run about 65. So the score's got to be about 480-240 or so. If I'm at 465, I'd rather have a bit more cushion...maybe 465-210 so they need 3 pretty good hands, 2 of which are shutouts.

If it's at all close, tho...give the meld. Give information. Too many things have to be wrong for this to burn you, whereas passing fails any time partner has anything decent. Note, too: in this situation, passing lets the opponents buy the hand CHEAP. If you give 20, and partner can take the bidding to 65, you may be forcing the opponents too high, at 70...so even if they CAN throw the shutout, you still gain.

Thought of another way to put this. If you pass in this situation (up 465-341, East opens 50, you have 20 meld)...what you're doing is bidding your hand AND your partner's hand, in essence. You're bidding that he won't have much, when he can have *anything*.

[mickmackusa]

(04-20-2013, 02:01 PM)ToreadorElder Wrote:  Thought of another way to put this. If you pass in this situation (up 465-341, East opens 50, you have 20 meld)...what you're doing is bidding your hand AND your partner's hand, in essence. You're bidding that he won't have much, when he can have *anything*.

Not to discredit any of your score & seat position -based reasons to meld bid, I feel the most compelling argument is Don't Mastermind.
I rarely have the time to play anymore, but when I do I want to have the reputation of a thoughtful and reliable teammate.
A Mastermind is an ugly / selfish player; I was unwittingly violating my own preferred style.
I officially adopt your advice for this scenario and the like.

[ToreadorElder]

I largely agree with you. Masterminding shoots yourself in the foot, because it erodes partnership trust. There are tactical situations where it's right to take an action that might appear to be masterminding, but is that masterminding, or bidding tactically? You need some darn good reasons for your action.

The situation we're discussing here, has strong tactical elements. PURE masterminding drives me up the wall. The big one: double bidder out, first seat opens 60, with NO MARRIAGE, and little or no meld. He buries his partner, but his 'rationale' is that the other side's going to take the bid, make, and win the game. Beyond the anti-sportsmanship aspect that we've discussed before, it's gross masterminding.

[rakbeater]

(04-19-2013, 05:38 PM)ToreadorElder Wrote:  Situation: the score is 465-341; you're losing. Partner, in first seat, passes. RHO bids 53, which takes the bid.

Partner melds aces and a marriage.

This partner does give aces bids...so what's going on? Why did he pass, and...roughly speaking...what does his hand look like?

ok ok, I get it. This partner normally gives aces bids, but didn't this time. That changes things.