Why do some players throw out their aces of trump at the begining of the hand...Makes

[tjtsocool]

Why do some players throw out their aces of trump at the begining of the hand...Makes no sense

[ToreadorElder]

Because no one ever really taught them how to play cards.

[mickmackusa]

Please note, I have deleted the duplicate post at Introduce Yourself subforum.
In the future, please use care to post in an appropriate and logical subforum.

Also, making a concise thread title will benefit others in the form of easy searchability. 

Here is some additional reading about Ace Hunting: http://www.powerpinochle.com/forum/showt...php?tid=99

[deadeye61]

(04-03-2015, 09:47 AM)tjtsocool Wrote:  Some good reason why you play aces of trump in the beginning of the hand. If you have 3 aces of trump and you made trump. Play aces first to try to catch the other ace, takes trump away from your opponents. If you catch the other ace, it makes your 10's good. Then your run down suit is in power. Most players don't use they run down suit or know what it is. Remember if you do this more then half the trump are gone. If your partner has aces around, this is an easy lead to him. This is the really hard play for players to understand. If your partner makes trump and starts playing aces of trump and you have the other ace. PLAY it on the first ace. Remember the player that makes trump has the master plan. You never want to  trump with as ace of trump. When you play it first, it is guaranteed to win. You take trump from your opponents, plus give your partner option to put a counter on it. Here's other thing to make you a good player. Your partner mades trump, you get the lead. If you have 1 or more of his aces of trump. Play them first and then your other aces. Next lead a trump back to your partner. (queen or batter). This again this takes trump from your opponents and the best part, it lets your partner know where the aces of trump are.

[ToreadorElder]

Where to begin...

1.  What is YOUR trump length? 

If you don't have extra trump length (7-8 is average, so 9+)...without running to cases, I can't give exact percentages, but I will say that it is MUCH more likely an opponent will have ATxxx or ATTxxx.  The first is bad;  the second is disastrous.  You just set up HIS tens, not yours.  Another losing case...an opponent may have TTTxxx.  *Even if* you crash an opponent's ace, you have major trump issues.  Finally, who says you're crashing an opponent's ace? 

2.  The action of stripping all the trumps, ALSO means you strip your partner's hand of trump.  Partner may have been able to ruff some losers for you...but not any more.  This is also QUITE common.

3.  If you have 3 trump aces, and your partner has shown aces...then you starting with your aces is simply, incredibly, HORRIBLY awful.  Start trump with a K to him!  It's guaranteed that he will...in fact, MUST...win this trick.  No one else can possibly win the tricks.  And he's in to cash.  You cash your 3 aces first...along with ALL the other issues being mentioned, you risk that he started with Axx.  CRASH!!!!  Foolishly.

4.  With the argument about a 'run-down suit'...you're putting the conveyance before the beast.  And I don't mean 'cart before the horse' because you also fail to specify what qualifies as a 'run down suit'...ergo, the ambiguity.

5.  When you, as dummy, *throw away* your ace of trump on partner's ace...you will VERY often cost your side 1 trick, and often 2 tricks.  As well as a route.  Yes, I'll grant the point that declarer has the master plan, but I'm never wasting ace on ace here unless I damn sure can trust partner to be doing this with GOOD reason, like

 

where his goal is to win 4 diamond tricks as well as 8 spade tricks, with a decent chance at a 9th spade trick.  And with relatively low risk, because of his trump length.  There are other lines of play that make sense;  every line starts with the , clearly enough, but after that both   and   have merit, and some risk.  Starting   has fairly HIGH risk.

But with a typical partner as per Yahoo or PlayOK, then it's far too likely to cost, to play my ace (as dummy) on his.

6.  It is also totally wrong to blithely play my trump aces as dummy, 'just to show partner where they are.'  Did partner play trump?  No?  Then why should you, as dummy?  Here's a much, much stronger principle:  your job as dummy is to eliminate partner's *losers*.  You cash your non-trump aces to eliminate partner's losers.  Unless your trump ace is VERY vulnerable (typically Ax, maybe Axx)...yes, you're covering a loser for partner, but there's no rush.  It will rarely disappear.  A fundamental principle on defense...say declarer and dummy have both cashed aces.  The defense should not, in most cases, even touch any suit but *trumps*.  If defense can force declarer to ruff...then leading that suit is good.  If dummy has advertised a running side suit, or declarer is playing in such a way as to suggest he's got one concealed (as in the example hand above)...then declarer wants trump out. 

No.  Cashing trump aces too early, without compelling reason to do so as in the hand shown, is a novice mistake.  Playing too many rounds of trump too early is a bit more of a beginner to intermediate mistake.

[tjtsocool]

(04-09-2015, 05:16 AM)deadeye61 Wrote:  [quote='tjtsocool' pid='2293' dateline='1428068871']

All that does it weaken your trump for example let's say you don't have three aces of trump and you throw your only ace of trump...Your opponents who may have an ace of a few tens now control your trump...Also why waste an ace on getting a queen or jack from your opponents ..??? It's better to wait and beat a ten or king if you have to cut , which you will always have to do ...AND..If you throw out your 3 aces and don't catch the other ace your opponenet with an ace and ten controlos your trump ...You have also weaken your trump and your partners trump by throwing out your aces...I only tine I want my partner to use his ace of my trump is when it's "lemming" or if I push trump to him to get him in the game sooner...other than that it's a wate to use it...

[ToreadorElder]

Another couple points. Doing this means you're largely committed to 4-5 rounds of trump, before playing anything in the side suits.

#1: good-bye partner's ruffs. There may not be any to be had, but if there were, you probably killed most, if not all, of them.
#2: You may lose control of the hand, but you WILL lose several tempos. Most likely, you can kiss last trick good-bye because you'll be forced out of the few remaining trump you have left. Remember, you've got 10-12 losers (OUTSIDE the trump suit) in most cases, and once the opponents can start forcing you to ruff, they should do it a LOT.