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World of Card Games supports Hand Animator format - Printable Version

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RE: World of Card Games supports Hand Animator format - marya - 08-21-2015

(08-20-2015, 10:34 PM)mickmackusa Wrote:  Now that I think about it, my boy just chose his elective courses for high school next year.  One of which is IT-based. Maybe he and I can do a father-son project.  Hmm.

That'd be nice Smile FYI, I like the hand animator but I don't really see it becoming a feature I'd add at WoCG. I have many other high priority items to work on and never enough time, like you. If you did support other game formats, I would make sure to support their export at WoCG, just as I did for Pinochle.

(08-20-2015, 07:44 PM)mickmackusa Wrote:  I would deliver hand histories with the notation being the only content in the body, and the email title would be like "WoCG: Hand History (North = Marya)" or something.  All other identifying data is currently held within your notation headings (Site, ID, tableid).  I would like to discourage you from including screennames in the notation.

That's a good idea, I will add this the next time I make changes, probably another couple weeks.


RE: World of Card Games supports Hand Animator format - marya - 08-21-2015

(08-20-2015, 11:38 PM)mickmackusa Wrote:  I just had a thought, and I could use some clarification.

When your players are exporting hand histories via email, are they only able to receive one hand at a time? or can they receive all of the hands at the end of the game? or both?

I hope the answer is both.
The Power Pinochle Hand Animator is written to handle multiple hands as long as there is blank line between each hand history.
I suppose, more commonly, people will only want to review a single hand.
However, some people may want to peruse the whole game without loading individual hands.

Currently, it is just one hand.

Please keep in mind that I have just added this feature, and it is experimental (no complaints so far, but only 2 people have used it, other than me). I am very open to allowing people to export entire games, if this is something players would like!

I think your hand animator only supports individual hands, currently, correct? If you support entire games, I'd need more info about the format for that.


RE: World of Card Games supports Hand Animator format - marya - 08-21-2015

(08-20-2015, 11:46 PM)TigreLXIX Wrote:  I did load some of the game into the Hand Animator.  It was easy enough (yet slightly inconvenient) to copy each hand from the e-mail into Notepad, then copy several hands (or the full game log) into PP.


If there were an API that existed to send data from WoCG directly to your PP account, then I can imagine the whole thing would be more conveniently done...

(08-20-2015, 11:46 PM)TigreLXIX Wrote:  Marya - one thought I had was that it might be good to have a checkbox in the Pinochle Options dialogue box that, if checked, would automatically send hand histories (and/or full game logs) to the e-mail on file.  There were a few hands where I forgot to hit [Shift]+P and therefore didn't get those specific hand histories, resulting in gaps in the game history.  (It still loaded in Hand Animator, but obviously the scores jumped around.)

I do not want people automatically getting sent hand histories. There are two reasons: 1) my email service is free up to a certain limit, and I don't want this limit exceeded. 2) Getting a ton of these emails sent to a user might get my email account marked as spam by some email services.

If people would like the entire game history, that's another thing I can add, too. I didn't think the hand animator would handle that. I implemented the functionality by copying the example I had seen.

I am doubtful that most players will want a record of every hand they've ever played... I figured it would be used rarely, mostly when they thought they saw someone playing incorrectly, possibly for checking for bugs. I guess if it turns out that people do want every hand history, I'll have to consider other ways to handle it.


RE: World of Card Games supports Hand Animator format - marya - 08-21-2015

(08-21-2015, 12:11 AM)TigreLXIX Wrote:  I think it may be beneficial, especially for "training" tables (which don't really exist per se, but with the ability to pause on private tables you can definitely provide feedback on play.  (As a matter of fact, I played a game the other night with Marya and found the pause button very handy.)

Now that you've publicly admitted to playing a game with me, I will publicly thank you for doing so. I found it very helpful, and I'm looking forward to more Smile

(08-21-2015, 12:11 AM)TigreLXIX Wrote:  During the aforementioned game, Marya said she would export the chat session so she could take the time to digest my feedback...I don't know if there is a way to do this with the click of a button, or if she simply copied and pasted from the chat window, or if she used her Administrator privileges to somehow accomplish this.

I could have used my admin privileges to grab the data out of the log. However, I just copied from the "chat log", which is visible from the table, even after the game is finished. It is easy to do if you know how to copy-paste text from a web page.

(08-21-2015, 12:11 AM)TigreLXIX Wrote:  As I type this, another option comes to mind...perhaps the chats could be stored with the game log (if this is easily accomplished), and the interface on PP could allow turning on or off the chats.  That might be the better way to go.

My own feeling is that people are better off just copying the chat log and examining it, if they felt it had value, rather than including it by default with the hand history. Keep in mind that if people are worried about privacy as to their gameplay, having their chats exported will really freak em out.


RE: World of Card Games supports Hand Animator format - marya - 08-21-2015

(08-21-2015, 12:46 AM)mickmackusa Wrote:  Some character validation/escaping would be necessary so harmful scripts aren't inputted into the animator, and also if a player did two line returns in a comment (causing a blank line in the notation), it wouldn't cause the Hand Animator to assume the conversation was over and start processing the next Hand prematurely.

There's already a certain level of processing done on chats at WoCG, so you shouldn't be getting dirty data. There are no carriage returns in chats.

(08-21-2015, 12:46 AM)mickmackusa Wrote:  By all means, let's discuss this further.  My first ideas are seldom the best ones.

I am willing to discuss it, but my initial reaction is that it's a bad idea - too many pitfalls, too little benefit. Example: "hey [publicly identifiable name], wtf did you throw away an Ace just now?". If people are already worried about being publicly identified in hand histories, they will not want to even visit a table where chats might be exported due to this concern. Adding a feature that scares people away from the site is not useful :/

(08-21-2015, 12:46 AM)mickmackusa Wrote:  p.s. For the record, I still have zero development time.  Even if I didn't have the comments viewable in the Hand Animator, the comments could be saved until a future date when I can update the Hand Animator.

From my own perspective, I'd rather first see this feature being used with some frequency before adding bells and whistles on it.

I will add the capability to export an entire game, given that the hand animator supports it, but I'd rather not put more time into the feature without evidence that it is popular.

I do have time for development work - it's almost all I do - but Pinochle has not taken off at WoCG. I should be working on ways to help that happen, and in addition, I have work on other games to do, too.


RE: World of Card Games supports Hand Animator format - TigreLXIX - 08-21-2015

(08-21-2015, 12:46 AM)mickmackusa Wrote:  The PPN 1.0 has all of the bidding lumped into a single string of text; as other values are too.
The Hand Animator performs "Steps" of the hand.
Without being to intrusive to the design, perhaps I could display comments that occurred at any point in that Step, but I don't think I want to be more time-specific than that.
The comments could be bulk packaged at the end of each hand's notation after the HandScores tag.
The Comment tags might use a unique prefix and go something like this (just spitballing this...) :

Code:
@Deal "N:Good luck everyone"
@Deal "W:Same 2 u"
@Auction01 "S:Classic Horrible Cards, sorry p :("
@Auction02 "E:You guys are in trouble now!"
@Meld "E:Some help you were, p!"
@Play02 "E:Okay, out of Aces, what to do, what to do"
@Play08 "E:Um, this isn't going to plan!"
@Play20 "E:Crappola! Sorry p, my fault."

Depending on how the chat history is displayed in the Hand Animator, I see a potential problem.

If each line of the chat history is displayed as a chat "bubble" or similar but less refined method - such as a simple rectangular text box - if a player were to send more than one chat line, the "bubbles" would cover up one another.  (This would be especially problematic for "training tables," where the game may be paused for a while as the players discussed an aspect of the game - and capturing / displaying the chat would probably be more important for these scenarios than during a regular game scenario.)  My recommendation (if the chat history were ever to be implemented) would be to have a single box off to the side (probably on the right-hand side of the table), and display the entire conversation at each "step" in the animation in this box.  It may also be necessary to have the ability to scroll within this box, depending on how much conversation takes place.  I don't know how this would look in the PPN notation, but maybe you could enclose it with some sort of beginning and ending tags in the text file.

(08-21-2015, 01:37 PM)marya Wrote:  I am doubtful that most players will want a record of every hand they've ever played... I figured it would be used rarely, mostly when they thought they saw someone playing incorrectly, possibly for checking for bugs. I guess if it turns out that people do want every hand history, I'll have to consider other ways to handle it.

I think you'll find that there will be some people who want every game's history (for various reasons) and others who won't care and probably won't make use of this feature at all - especially if they need to register here to really get much use of it (casual players most likely won't be able to just look at the text and inherently understand it).

(08-21-2015, 01:50 PM)marya Wrote:  Now that you've publicly admitted to playing a game with me, I will publicly thank you for doing so. I found it very helpful, and I'm looking forward to more Smile

I am not ashamed to admit it, and I didn't intend to keep it a secret.  I would not have been upset if you mentioned it.  I enjoyed it as well and also look forward to the next time.

(08-21-2015, 02:08 PM)marya Wrote:  I am willing to discuss it, but my initial reaction is that it's a bad idea - too many pitfalls, too little benefit. Example: "hey [publicly identifiable name], wtf did you throw away an Ace just now?". If people are already worried about being publicly identified in hand histories, they will not want to even visit a table where chats might be exported due to this concern. Adding a feature that scares people away from the site is not useful :/

I understand the concern, but I don't usually see people use each other's screen names in chats, especially when they are addressing their partner - which is where most of the criticism would be directed.  It's usually more like "P!!!!  Why the F--- did you throw away that ace?!?! You incompetent idiot!"


RE: World of Card Games supports Hand Animator format - rakbeater - 08-21-2015

Wow, I just read through all these posts. The only thing that stands out to me that I wanted to comment on is this:

The emails I received from Poker sites when I wanted my Hand Histories were for an entire tournament, or the entire time I was seated at a particular cash table. I did receive the names of the opposing players in my email and I liked that because I could take notes on how each different type of player played, and use that to my advantage in the future. But when I submitted my HH to the poker replayer, which was public, only my screen name was shown. I don't know if I like it that way because that is what I am used to, but that is how I would prefer this to work.

FYI, comments were included in the HH, but I don't remember the replayers having comments (Mick remembers differently) and I never needed or wanted them there. So I don't see a need for the extra work to get them in.


RE: World of Card Games supports Hand Animator format - rakbeater - 08-21-2015

I just played the last part of a game:

Just thinking about beginners...but would it be a nice thing for there to be a training table where there was no time limit and where hand histories would include the names of all the players so it could be analyzed for the intention of improvement?

Also, with enough players, it would be nice to have an advanced section where there is no "meld" button to help count your meld for you. Better players should be expected to do that for themselves.


RE: World of Card Games supports Hand Animator format - TigreLXIX - 08-21-2015

(08-21-2015, 10:33 PM)rakbeater Wrote:  Just thinking about beginners...but would it be a nice thing for there to be a training table where there was no time limit and where hand histories would include the names of all the players so it could be analyzed for the intention of improvement?

On Private tables, you can use the pause button to stop the countdown timer and prevent other players (bots or humans) from playing.  I'm not sure what value there would be in knowing the names of all the players at the table, unless the "trainer" were to address each player by name during the chat.  I personally have no problem with people knowing I was involved in a game, but I know there are others who have strong objections to their name being associated with any records.

(08-21-2015, 10:33 PM)rakbeater Wrote:  Also, with enough players, it would be nice to have an advanced section where there is no "meld" button to help count your meld for you.  Better players should be expected to do that for themselves.

Yeah, but honestly...I don't even use the "Show Meld" button.  I would say that a good majority of advanced players wouldn't use it either.


RE: World of Card Games supports Hand Animator format - mickmackusa - 08-21-2015

I just found a random Texas Hold'em hand history exported from PokerStars...

Code:
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to whose ivey [7s 7d]
AcqWar: folds
khonda: folds
steve0hno: raises 600 to 800
BigBong_1: folds
Spicychip: folds
shadowmoondi: calls 800
TrenKB: folds
whose ivey: raises 2645 to 3445 and is all-in
amaqui: folds
steve0hno: raises 517 to 3962 and is all-in
shadowmoondi: folds
*** FLOP *** [Jc 2h Tc]
steve0hno said, "damn"
*** TURN *** [Jc 2h Tc] [Qh]
steve0hno said, "nice one"
*** RIVER *** [Jc 2h Tc Qh] [7h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
whose ivey: shows [7s 7d] (three of a kind, Sevens)
steve0hno: shows [6d 6s] (a pair of Sixes)
steve0hno said, "****"
whose ivey collected 8115 from pot
steve0hno said, "that is g**"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8115 | Rake 0
Board [Jc 2h Tc Qh 7h]
Seat 1: khonda folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: steve0hno showed [6d 6s] and lost with a pair of Sixes
Seat 3: BigBong_1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Spicychip folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: shadowmoondi folded before Flop
Seat 6: TrenKB (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: whose ivey (small blind) showed [7s 7d] and won (8115) with three of a kind, Sevens
Seat 8: amaqui (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: AcqWar folded before Flop (didn't bet)

This is evidence of the very common and very useless/offensive comments.

My vote is to veto the inclusion of comments.
If a group of players want to make notes for the sake of future analysis, they can keep a small notepad next to their computer or use a notepad-like program on their computer.

I suppose, since players can make a note of the players involved in a game and transfer it to their exported history, we can't really stop this flow of knowledge.
If rakbeater wants it, perhaps other might too.
I do want to keep the player names separate from notation.
Power Pinochle will ensure decency is maintained in our forum.  We can't police elsewhere.
If someone wanted to do a screen capturing video of an entire game, including their own voice, and post a defamatory video on youtube or something, that's beyond my control.

If all the screennames from a game are going to be emailed with the notation, I will ask that it be kept separate from the notation.
For example, the email title could be: "WoCG: Game History (marya,TigreLXIX,rakbeater,mickmackusa)"
In my example, the usernames would always be ordered as N,E,S,W.

Regarding the use of poker replayers, I seldom used them.  I found them unnecessary because the raw notation was simple enough to quickly read and analyze.  Comments were included in the notation, and while sometimes it was comical, usually it was rude/nonsensical.  When speaking to Marek from PlayOK, he wasn't convinced that the Power Pinochle Hand Animator was necessary either.  He referenced Bridge notation (like you might see in the newspaper) and said that he felt that was sufficient.  Raw pinochle notation is very difficult to read.  The Hand Animator is not just for aesthetic purposes.  Because of the important of signifying cards used in meld, as well as the flow of the play round, animating the notation yields a highly functional presentation which leaves raw notation in the dust.

I suppose the point I want to make is that the decision to develop an animator/replayer depends heavily on how a game is played and if the raw notation is easily read.  The first action is to develop a raw notation for a given game.  After refining the notation, so that all vital information is provided and unnecessary data is omitted, step back and ask yourself if the notation is comprehensible.