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dealer responds to save bid with a meld bid
#1
I was just playing a game at World of Card Games (all 4 humans - can't blame the bots on this one).

I'm North, dealer is West.

East starts with a meld bid - 20 meld. South passes. West responds with a meld bid +3, presumably saying "I have 30 meld so take it if you can". I pass, since I don't have anything worth bidding (at least, I don't think so - comments anyone?). Dealer's partner... passes? Dealer has one marriage, hearts, and we have a bunch of those.

East/West get set because they couldn't take enough tricks.

How wrong is it that the dealer's partner passed? I think that I would not have passed, not when dealer is giving me a meld bid. But dealer's partner doesn't have a great hand either. Were they just doomed anyway?

Code:
% Format "PPN 1.0"
% Site "worldofcardgames.com"
% Date "2017.06.17"
% ID "14977285245708"
% Players "N-ma E-ju S-bo W-ru"
% tableid "d9382495-3ce0-4b71-ac40-1066e73f90aa"

[GameScores "274:425"]
[Deal "W:CTTTDATTKQQSAAATKJHATKQJ CQQQJJJDAAKQJJSTKQJHTKQQ CAAKKKQDTQSATKKJHAATTKJJ CAATKJDATKKJJSTQQQJHAKQJ"]
[Auction "N:Pass 52 Pass 55 - Pass"]
[Contract "W 55 H"]
[Melds "17:CDKQSHATKQJ 18:CQDKQJSKQHKQ 2:CKQDSH 38:CJDJJSQQJHKQJ"]
[Play "W"]
TD AD JD TD N3
AS JS KS JS N2
AS QS KS QS N2
AS KS TS QS N3
JS TS AS QS S2
AC JC TC JC S2
AC KC TC JC S3
QD KD TD AD E3
AD KH JD KD S3
JS TS KS QH E2
QC KC TC TC W3
JD QD KD JH S1
QC AC KH JC N2
TD JD TH KD S3
KC AC JH QC N2
TS QH TH AH W3
QH TH KH AH S3
JH KH AH TH N3
QD QD AH AD S2
KC JH QH QC N3
[MeldScores "19:56"]
[PlayScores "39:11"]
[Result "SET"]
[HandScores "39:-55"]
Play Pinochle at World of Card Games!
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#2
I'd blame the dealer mostly.  

There are 2 issues.  #1:  should West pass or show meld?  #2:  if West gives meld back, should East rebid...and if so, what should he bid?

#1:  Yes, West is better off, by and large, showing the meld.  Recognize that East did give meld, and a meld bid does NOT promise a rebid.  (Neither does a save.)  The risks:

1a)  if West passes, East may not have a marriage at all.  Second, East won't know that tricks are the only concern.  If West passes, East's major concern may be to get on the board.  

1b)  If West gives meld, East may pass with a hand like this.

But 1b can also still work.  East can have hearts with no marriage.  Or a decent collection of aces, and hearts break nicely around the table.  Give East, say,  TH TH XH XH XH and NS have 6-5 hearts.  The actual heart distribution was pretty much a disaster for West.  

Finally, if West passes and it's *wrong*, it's much more damaging.  It's anti-partnership.  

#2:  should East bid?  Yes, and here's why.  What did West's first bid say?  NS were already out of the auction.  West gave meld.  West already knew that meld was not an issue.  If West has a trump suit, he doesn't need to give meld back.  He can bid 53.  Yes, this sounds like it might be just a save after a meld bid.  But let's consider the various auctions:

East 52
West 53
East 54
West 55

55 says, no, pard, I'm good.  

East 52
West 53
East 54
West 56 or 57

What is West saying?  He could have given meld, but chose not to, on his first bid.  East's second bid is just a checkback...typically a 5 or 6 card run because West didn't give meld.  So, when West is giving meld on his *second* bid, his first bid is also clarified...he has a trump suit.  It's not great, but it's OK.  If it was better, he'd just bid 55, as before.  If it was worse, he'd have started with a meld bid.  West probably has a so-so 7 card suit or a good 6 card suit, say

 TC TC XC XC XC XC XC    or   AC AC TC KC KC QC

East's *best* trump suit on this auction is usually a weak 7 card run like  AC TC KC QC QC JC JC ... he has to have the run to rebid on this sequence, and with a better suit, he had other options...*he* could have started with 50, then shown meld.  But it's more likely to be, as noted, a 5 or 6 card run.  I'd rather, by and large, play that weak 7 card trump suit, even aceless.  It's still probably going to yield a couple tricks when it's trump.

So here...

East 52
West 55

East should rebid 57.  He's got 3 bids:

pass -- obviously saying, no, he has no playability.
56 or 57 -- meld's no issue.  Run?  Who cares.  Irrelevant.  Therefore, one shows more playability, the other is "if I have to...but feel free to take it."  The cheapest bid is to play, much more often than not...so 56 is the stronger bid, and 57 is the "if I have to" bid.

That's how I play these sequences, and IMO it makes the most sense in *all* the possible auctions, if you work through them.  It's the combination of messages.  

So, I'd say East made a mild error...but no more.  That hand is awful for declaring.  I'd MUCH rather have

QC QC QC JC JC JC TD TD KD QD JD JD AS KS QS JS AH KH QH QH

At least there's a chance for a 3rd or 4th trick from the trump 10s.

Mostly, this was just bad luck.
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#3
(06-19-2017, 03:20 PM)ToreadorElder Wrote:  So here...

East 52
West 55

East should rebid 57.  He's got 3 bids:

pass -- obviously saying, no, he has no playability.
56 or 57 -- meld's no issue.  Run?  Who cares.  Irrelevant.  Therefore, one shows more playability, the other is "if I have to...but feel free to take it."  The cheapest bid is to play, much more often than not...so 56 is the stronger bid, and 57 is the "if I have to" bid.

Thanks for the analysis!

The part that confuses me is above is where you said it's best to rebid with a meld bid +2 (is that what you're doing?).

Can you clarify what the message is here? This sequence is clearer to me:
I give a meld bid, they give a meld bid, I bid +1 and then they bid +1, meaning we both are comfortable declaring trump.
E.g.
E: 52 ("I have 20 meld")
W: 54 ("I have 20 meld")
E: 55 ("I would have no problem declaring")
W: 56 ("I have something awesome, let me declare!")

But if someone gives me a meld bid, then I give them a meld bid back (meaning "I don't really have anything but if you have a good suit here's my meld"), and then they give me meld back again -I just get confused. Example:
E: 52 ("I have 20 meld")
W: 54 ("I have 20 meld")
E: 56 (??)
W: ??? - ("I know you have 20 meld, you already told me, so what do you mean now?")
Play Pinochle at World of Card Games!
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#4
Quote:Can you clarify what the message is here? This sequence is clearer to me:
I give a meld bid, they give a meld bid, I bid +1 and then they bid +1, meaning we both are comfortable declaring trump.
E.g.
E: 52 ("I have 20 meld")  
W: 54 ("I have 20 meld")
E: 55 ("I would have no problem declaring")
W: 56 ("I have something awesome, let me declare!")

This sequence makes sense when North is dealer, because North will still active, and can jump to 65 or more.

Give West 20 meld but no run, and a decent but not outstanding hand...say,

hand 1

AC AC KC KC QC JC JC AD TD KD QD JD AS TS TS QS JS  TH QH JH

East opens 52, South passes...North's still lurking.  West has to worry that North will bid 60 or 65.  Figure:  if West takes captaincy now, how high can he bid?  He's only got 4 tricks in diamonds;  a 5 card run can't be considered as more than one trick for the ace.  He's got a total of 40 meld in clubs, and with 6 tricks there, his max is a reasonably comfortable 60.  In diamonds, ok, he's got 50 meld, but pulling 20 is not clear-cut.  His max is 70, but ANY bidding is nervous.  So, 54 does tell East about the meld should the auction become competitive.  And he can rebid.

Now we get back to East, and your question is, what's the difference between 55 and 56 here?  Remember that West has not promised a marriage, and absolutely has not promised to rebid.  So East probably has to bid with, say,

a)  

TC TC KC QC JC JC TD TD KD QD JD JD AS KS QS JS AH TH QH JH

That's ugly as sin, and East has no *desire* to play it...but he really can't leave West hanging.  Conversely, he could have

b)

KC QC JC AD AD TD KD QD JD AS AS TS TS QS JS JS TH TH QH JH

I'll play this readily here!  6 diamonds is not enough to start with 50, to ask for meld...but once pard's given meld?  This hand often plays very nicely, so long as you know how to play it.  (Spades, spades, spades, spades!!!!)

So, the point is to distinguish between the junk hands, and the potential "ohgodwe'reinsomuchtroubleifhecan'tbidagain" hands.  What I'm saying is, 56 is the WEAKER bid than 55.  So here, 55 by East would actually be, yeah, OK pard, I'm good.  I do have 5-6 tricks in my suit.  56 is showing LESS.

Also note that this has NS passing.  Tweak the auction:
East 52
South 53
West 55
North pass

Can East pass with a)?  Bleah!  :Smile There is no good choice, but bidding again to protect West promotes a solid partnership.  And bidding 57 to say "HELP!" is clearly critical.  If South bids again, East is PASSING!!! That's what 57 is saying.  If West wants to compete further against South, should it be needed, it's on his head.  If East has b) he can bid 56.

The meaning of West's rebid is, "I hear you;  I've got something that should be better."  So

East 52
South pass
West 54
North pass
East 55

West's 56 is something like hand 1...most commonly, I'd say, a decent 7 card non-run and other bits and pieces.  But 

East 52
South pass
West 54
North pass
East 56

Since East is practically begging West to rebid, he can do it with a lot less. :Smile I'd bid 57 here with, say

AC KC  KC QC QC JC AD AD XD XD XD XD XD AS AS XS XH XH XH XH 

Because he wants to be leading FIRST to cash the pointed suit aces ASAP.  Yeah, OK, the trump suit's substandard, but the timing aspect is huge.  If the pointed suits come home for 4 tricks, clearly that's a good start.  And recognize again:  East is WEAK.  He's said so.  If West has this and East bids 55, West passes in an eyeblink.

Do most people play this way?  Probably not;  most don't have any structure in their bidding.
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