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98 meld, weak hand - how to bid?
#11
yes, 60 is not a meld bid and if the bot is interpreting it as that it is interesting.

The reason is that on the one hand a 60 is a "jump" bid from 58, meaning that partner is indicating a strong trump hand and wants to call trump. Bidding 59 would be just covering partners meld bid because it's required if at all possible. Giving a meld bid says nothing about being able to call trump. You give a meld bid like that even if there is no marriage in the hand. Partner is supposed to cover but may not want to call trump. So 1 over the meld bid (this is assuming opponent in between passed. If opponent left bid then you the meld bidder is off the hook and if partner bids it's to give a meld bid to you or try to win the bid and call trump.

Now this deviates strongly from this reserving 58 and 59 thing that maybe a lot of people use, I have no idea, but it provides too much ambiguity in bidding and takes away opportunity to indicate your meld unambiguously. Now the fact of the matter is is that anyone with a large meld bid or jumping to 60 or 65 doesn't leave room for normal meld bidding, it's not that it can always be given. But to the degree that it can, 58 and 59 should be used for 1 for 10 as with 50's below that in my opinion.

But there's no perfect solution. If you bid 59 whether in my system because you had 90 plus meld or in the common system here where it indicates you have double aces, partner's up by one is a 60 bid. In that case, you don't assume they have a strong trump suit, it's not a jump bid that skips numbers, and you would treat it as covering your meld where you would bid again if you had a strong enough hand to save, if barely. Partners next bid would be bidding to call trump.

One interesting statement you made marya is that you interpreted your partners bid as a 20 meld bid and passed. Just passing leaves them on the hook to call trump when they are out there to give you a meld bid. As it is, 58 to 60 is not a meld bid but given the bot did it it may very well be programmed to do that, I don't know. In any event, if it's a meld bid you pass with great reluctance figuring that their hand must be as good as yours because yours is not strong enough to save. That may be the case here, but emphasizing that passing on partners meld bid to you is not done lightly.

To make one more point, the interesting thing is that someone jumping from 58 to 60 very likely does have 20 meld so interpreting it that way would probablly be true but just coincidentally. A jump from 54 to 60 is a lot less likely that the bidder has 60 meld.
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#12
Thanks to all for the excellent feedback on this. Now I have another question. The Beginner's Hand Classifier Beginner's Hand Classifier (thanks for the correction below Mick, it was a copy-pasto) gives West's hand three positive indications: It's a meld hand, an Aces hand, and a Declarer hand.

You're all saying that West should respond to their partner's meld bid with a captaincy bid, which makes sense. Now what if West had been first to bid? Should West provide a meld bid first, or go straight for captaincy?

And here's another question. Suppose West had 20 meld but no marriages (or a non-declarer hand for some other reason), and wanted to provide a meld bid when their partner had bid 58. Is there a way to do this without making their partner think they wanted to declare? Would they just have to pass?
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#13
(04-04-2016, 08:57 AM)marya Wrote:  Thanks to all for the excellent feedback on this. Now I have another question. The Beginner's Hand Classifier gives West's hand three positive indications: It's a meld hand, an Aces hand, and a Declarer hand.

You're all saying that West should respond to their partner's meld bid with a captaincy bid, which makes sense. Now what if West had been first to bid? Should West provide a meld bid first, or go straight for captaincy?

First, I should clear up that the hyperlink that you have provided does not indicate Meld, Aces, and Declarer. Maybe you didn't mean to preload a hand in the url. (also, in your url, trump is not used by the Beginner's Hand Classifer program)
Anyhow, http://www.powerpinochle.com/forum/begin...TJ&chart=2 will offer us West's hand from earlier which IS a Meld, Aces, and Declarer hand.

CABS says you *can* justifiably do any of those things. Enter "Personal Preference". There are a few schools of thought. Some people say because the Aces Around Bid is so "fragile" and valuable that you should prioritize that communication first. There is also a style called "Meld-First Always" (MFA), which I don't use but many do because it is so simple. The logic is that communicating meld gives the team a higher bidding limit and affords them more bids by which to negotiate who will become Declarer. Opposite to that, there is "Strength-First Always" (SFA), but I don't recommend that one; it just feels too selfish and less logical. A more thoughtful approach would weigh up all relevant factors (Hand Power, Hand Meld, Score, Partner Behavior, Opponent Behavior, etc) and prioritize the bids to offer the best, most important communication then offering the less important communication if the Auction allows it.

(04-04-2016, 08:57 AM)marya Wrote:  And here's another question. Suppose West had 20 meld but no marriages (or a non-declarer hand for some other reason), and wanted to provide a meld bid when their partner had bid 58. Is there a way to do this without making their partner think they wanted to declare? Would they just have to pass?

Unfortunately the Auction had reached choking point just before the 60 threshold. Following the 58 bid, a 59 bid (as a +1 bid) would be interpreted as a Captaincy/Control/Take/Declarership Bid, as would a +2 bid in this instance since 60 is never used to communicate meld. Luckily for this case, team East-West has meld out the wazoo and missing the opportunity to announce the 20 meld is of no consequence. In conclusion, West would/should Pass because all available numeric bids would be assumed to vie for declarership.
It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing all your life. -- Mickey Mantle
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#14
Mick is right on the money again.
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