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bidding frustration
#1
I recently recorded a hand of Double Deck Pinochle that I played at World of Card Games.... Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmrp9xCUoK0

The first little bit is the tail end of a hand where our opponents declared trump, but didn't have 20 meld, and hence forfeited the hand.

After that, you see new cards dealt. I got a pretty good hand, and I was thinking our luck would turn around! I'm all ready to bid, when West opens with 65! I couldn't justify making a bid because I just didn't have sufficient meld (even counting the run). If you have time to watch the video, I'm curious to know if this is an open and shut case, where I did the right thing.... A 70 bid seems just crazy to me in this case. Am I right?

I came into the game after it started, so can't take responsibility for the score at this point... same for my partner Smile We lost in the end, though. Partner seemed pretty good, but was the quiet type, which always makes me a bit nervous!
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#2
(03-05-2016, 05:36 PM)marya Wrote:  If you have time to watch the video, I'm curious to know if this is an open and shut case, where I did the right thing.... A 70 bid seems just crazy to me in this case. Am I right?

I wouldn't say it would be crazy to bid 70, but it is a bit of a stretch. The hand projects to take 9 tricks (22.5 points - say 23, because with all those clubs last trick is pretty much a given), and with 14 meld that means your hand would account for 37 points. That means your partner would have to provide about 33 points between meld and trick play. Given the game situation, I think you did the right thing.

I didn't watch the whole video - did your opponents make the bid?
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#3
Tigre, where's that formula posted? I remember you had pointed it out to me, but recently I've been hunting all over for it, and I can't find it.

Since p did not give a meld bid, I figured there was no way they were going to give me anywhere near 30 meld... It was a little odd. My partner showed 24 meld, and had marriages in every suit, so I don't understand why they didn't lead with a meld bid. They seemed to be playing okay, but either they didn't understand to do that, or didn't feel comfortable with their cards or something...

Our opponents did make their bid! raiderfan had good reason to make that meld bid (55 meld). We had some luck, and saved our meld, though.
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#4
(03-05-2016, 07:47 PM)marya Wrote:  Tigre, where's that formula posted? I remember you had pointed it out to me, but recently I've been hunting all over for it, and I can't find it.

(08-29-2012, 02:04 PM)ToreadorElder Wrote:  Next step:  how many tricks is your hand worth? ...

1.  Count 1 trick for each ace.
2.  Count 1 trick for each trump.
3.  SUBTRACT 1 trick for each trump ace that you're missing.

That's the basic count right there, in a nutshell.  Start with that, and you'll improve your game a great deal.

There's further discussion on that thread...I'd recommend reviewing it.

[Full disclosure - Marya found this thread after we exchanged a few e-mails.  I'm responding in case anyone else reading this thread is curious/interested.  Thanks Marya!]
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#5
Thanks for posting this! Now I have to figure out how to save this thread or something Smile I'd bookmark it, but my bookmarks are a shambles.
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#6
(08-29-2012, 02:04 PM)ToreadorElder Wrote:  Next step:  how many tricks is your hand worth? ...

1.  Count 1 trick for each ace.
2.  Count 1 trick for each trump.
3.  SUBTRACT 1 trick for each trump ace that you're missing.

That's the basic count right there, in a nutshell.  Start with that, and you'll improve your game a great deal.

For anyone that needs greater clarity on the trick counting advice, I would like to extend that:

1. Count 1 trick for each ace.

really means:

1. Count 1 trick for each non-trump ace.

.....

Some people calculate each trick to be worth 2.4 points, but others use rounding for easier calculating.
If you possess advanced playing skills like Counting Cards (Aces, Trump, Side-suit), Trump Management, Signalling, etc. then you will be more accurate with 2.5 points per trick.
If you are a beginner or accident-prone, perhaps consider tricks worth 2 points neat.

I highly recommend the thread that Tigre sited.
If you click on the GREEN RIGHT ARROW next to the quote, you be taken to the right place. (this is true of all quotes on the site)
It is a very small icon, so for those who can't manage it, here is the post: Basics: Assessing Your Hand

There is some debate on the REAL value of aces/trump, and if they can be better counted/weighted based on the number of Aces in a suit, the length of the suit with the ace in it, and more.  The above guideline is the best advice there is until statistical analysis of real games can be undertaken.
It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing all your life. -- Mickey Mantle
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#7
If anyone wants to know what the other hands were dealt...

Paste the following Power Pinochle Notation (deprecated) into the textarea @ the Hand Animator (to be re-developed) and click Submit.

Code:
% Format "PPN 1.0"
% Site "worldofcardgames.com"

[Deal "W:CTTKQDAKQQSAATTKQHKKQJJJ CAJDATTTTKQJJSAKQQQHTKQQ CAATKKQJJDAKSATJJHATTKQJ CATKQQJDAKQJJSTKKJJHAAAT"]

I have annotated Marya's screen-captured video and added it to the examples at the bottom of the PN's specifications page.
It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing all your life. -- Mickey Mantle
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#8
(03-06-2016, 08:43 AM)mickmackusa Wrote:  I have annotated Marya's screen-captured video and added it to the examples at the bottom of the PN's specifications page.

This is the PN's specification page .... I only see one example? Is it somewhere else?
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#9
Marya - try this link.
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#10
(03-06-2016, 09:01 AM)marya Wrote:  
(03-06-2016, 08:43 AM)mickmackusa Wrote:  I have annotated Marya's screen-captured video and added it to the examples at the bottom of the PN's specifications page.

This is the PN's specification page .... I only see one example? Is it somewhere else?

I can understand the misunderstanding referencing the different development version of Pinochle notation; there are a lot of P's floating around.

My first attempt at notation didn't have a name and it didn't last long.
My second attempt was called "Power Pinochle Notation" inspired by a modified Portable Bridge Notation.
My third attempt was called "Portable Pinochle Notation" and it tried desperately to align with Portable Bridge Notation.
My fourth and latest version is called "Pinochle Notation", because I feel the "Portable" part is unnecessary to include (I mean, what good would it be if it wasn't portable!?!).

Your hyperlink, Marya, while saying "PN" is pointing to "PPN".
I am keeping the old specification alive in case anyone needs to reference it, but I am not providing any new links to it.

Likewise with the Power Pinochle Notation and the Hand Animator, I plan to keep them alive long after I remove them from the Navigation Menu of Links.
It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing all your life. -- Mickey Mantle
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