Theoretical Bidding System - Conditional Statements

[mickmackusa]

My Theoretical Bidding System provides additional/increased clarity and agility in bidding language when compared to the CABS:
1. A Single Aces Around Bid can be used unless the Previous Bid is 59 or higher.
2. 59 is ALWAYS, ALWAYS an Unlimited Support Bid (Meld or Aces) regardless of the Previous Bid. If the Previous Bid is 58, 59 CAN mean any multiple of an Aces Around Bid or a Meld Bid of 20 or more. Clearer communication, in this case, would urge the Double Aces Around Bid to be 100.
3. 59 CAN mean a Double/Triple/Quadruple Aces Around Bid when a frugal bidder doesn't wish to bid the Aces Around Value.
4. 60 is ALWAYS, ALWAYS a Control Bid regardless of the Previous Bid.
5. No grey/subjective "cut-off" points for calculating bids. The primary goal is to eliminate the chance of a partner mis-interpretting a Bid Category.


Why not eliminate a 59 bid and unlimited support bid totally? The frequency of use is so low, especially compared to the frequency of aces around, that if a basic premise of this bidding system is to create more room/space under 60, a specific meaning for 59 seems to contradict the very principle for a 50 or +1 bid meaning aces around.

[ToreadorElder]

1. This is the big advantage, yes.
2. NO WAY. It CANNOT be. Auction starts 52 - 57 to you. Is 59 unlimited meld or aces around, in your system? Also, auction starts 51 (shows aces but does NOT deny meld) - 58 to you. 59 is *required* to say, yes, I want to play it, and show me more meld if you can.
3. AGH!!!! NO. If you're going to use 100 for double aces (or better, but do we really care that the bidder actually has triple aces?) then ALWAYS use it when it can be used in that manner. LHO opens 53; I bid 59. Is this double aces, or 60+ meld (but not double aces)? 60+ meld can be triple pino (with some extras if it's only worth 45), double queens, double kings, or double jacks with double pino. Probably a few others, but this is the majority. Double Q's and double K's are clearly twice as likely as double aces, so the 60+ meld is clearly more likely than the double aces. But what is partner to do, if it could be either? If it's double aces, he bids with, say,



He'll win a few tricks with his trump length alone, so 20's automatic. But if it's double kings or double queens, he's nowhere NEAR bidding. His action would be a blind guess as to what you really mean.

4. NO. It can't be. 55 - 58 to you. You have



In your approach, what bid *can* you make? Me, I bid 60, intending this to show 20. Yes, it's got some risk because many partners think every 60 bid *is* "I want to play it."

You simply *cannot* always use certain bids to show certain hands in ALL possible bidding situations.

[mickmackusa]

(09-01-2013, 06:59 AM)mickmackusa Wrote:  My Theoretical Bidding System provides additional/increased clarity and agility in bidding language when compared to the CABS:
1. A Single Aces Around Bid can be used unless the Previous Bid is 59 or higher.
2. 59 is ALWAYS, ALWAYS an Unlimited Support Bid (Meld or Aces) regardless of the Previous Bid. If the Previous Bid is 58, 59 CAN mean any multiple of an Aces Around Bid or a Meld Bid of 20 or more. Clearer communication, in this case, would urge the Double Aces Around Bid to be 100.
3. 59 CAN mean a Double/Triple/Quadruple Aces Around Bid when a frugal bidder doesn't wish to bid the Aces Around Value.
4. 60 is ALWAYS, ALWAYS a Control Bid regardless of the Previous Bid.
5. No grey/subjective "cut-off" points for calculating bids. The a primary goal is to eliminate the chance of a partner mis-interpretting a Bid Category.

(09-01-2013, 09:52 PM)ToreadorElder Wrote:  1. This is the big advantage, yes.
2. NO WAY. It CANNOT be. Auction starts 52 - 57 to you. Is 59 unlimited meld or aces around, in your system? Also, auction starts 51 (shows aces but does NOT deny meld) - 58 to you. 59 is *required* to say, yes, I want to play it, and show me more meld if you can.
3. AGH!!!! NO. If you're going to use 100 for double aces (or better, but do we really care that the bidder actually has triple aces?) then ALWAYS use it when it can be used in that manner. LHO opens 53; I bid 59. Is this double aces, or 60+ meld (but not double aces)? 60+ meld can be triple pino (with some extras if it's only worth 45), double queens, double kings, or double jacks with double pino. Probably a few others, but this is the majority. Double Q's and double K's are clearly twice as likely as double aces, so the 60+ meld is clearly more likely than the double aces. But what is partner to do, if it could be either? If it's double aces, he bids with, say,



He'll win a few tricks with his trump length alone, so 20's automatic. But if it's double kings or double queens, he's nowhere NEAR bidding. His action would be a blind guess as to what you really mean.

4. NO. It can't be. 55 - 58 to you. You have



In your approach, what bid *can* you make? Me, I bid 60, intending this to show 20. Yes, it's got some risk because many partners think every 60 bid *is* "I want to play it."

You simply *cannot* always use certain bids to show certain hands in ALL possible bidding situations.

1. I feel like you are saying that you DO and DO NOT like the usability of my Soft Single Aces Around Bid. Another post claimed it wasn't very useful. I need to know which side of the fence you are on, so that I know if the argument is finished or ongoing.

2. By my definition, 59 is a Hard Unlimited Meld Bid and never a Control Bid. If the previous bid is 57, then 59 can mean any Aces Around Bid or any Meld Bid (20 meld or greater). Yes, if not numerically limited, you can first Single Aces Around Bid and second Meld Bid as both of these Support Bids are Soft Bids. If you want to say "I want to play it", you must bypass the Hard 59 Meld Bid and use the Hard 60 Control Bid which gives clear information.

3. Sorry to keep mentioning the Triple and Quadruple Aces Bid, I was annoyed by even typing it. I've never seen either of them, and I suspect I never will. From this point on, assume when I say Double Aces Around that its two older brothers are included in the statement. My preference is probably to go to 100 each and every time, as I am not afraid of ramping the bid up to triple digits. When the previous bid is 53, and you bid 59, you might have Double Aces or you might have Double Queens Around (or Triple Pinochle with spare change, or Double Kings, etc.). Either way, the Unlimited Meld Bid conveys 60+ meld. If you have Double Aces and you want to convey the meld and the aces, use 100. The responsibility is on the Meld/Aces bidder to determine what information the Control might want/need based on the complete bidding history of the hand. It is possible that the Meld/Aces bidder could give 59 to show a bulk of meld, only to find that the opposition has enough juice to run the bid up to a considerably high level. The Meld/Aces bidder still has the capability to bid 100 to give further support to his partner in the way of explicitly representing Double Aces Around.

4. Yes, you can give a 59 bid. This is the situation when the Hard Bid is at its least clear. By bidding 59 and then PASS on the following turn, your partner can assume you for at least Single Aces Around or 20 Meld. If you had 30 meld (or more), you could bid 59. Assuming the opponent makes a minimum Control Bid [60], and your partner makes a minimum Control Bid[65], you could perform a Jump Meld Bid[75] (or more).

I encourage you to be open-minded to these solutions I am presenting. I am not debating this system because I want you to be wrong, rather I want my bidding system to become right. It seems my Theoretical Bidding System is on a mission to do the impossible. I want to create truly Hard Bids, because the clarity is wonderful. My Hard Bids (when your partner is still active in the bidding) are 59, 60, and 100. Since the CABS is not "complete", I want to build the first ever complete bidding system. I thank you for helping me sculpt it. Once the system is complete, the next trick will be explaining it as simply as possible ...I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

[ToreadorElder]

1. I'm not on the fence. It is an advantage, but with limited utility and an unacceptable cost. The points about limited utility and unacceptable cost are obviously subjective, though.

Quote:2. By my definition, 59 is a Hard Unlimited Meld Bid and never a Control Bid. If the previous bid is 57, then 59 can mean any Aces Around Bid or any Meld Bid (20 meld or greater). Yes, if not numerically limited, you can first Single Aces Around Bid and second Meld Bid as both of these Support Bids are Soft Bids. If you want to say "I want to play it", you must bypass the Hard 59 Meld Bid and use the Hard 60 Control Bid which gives clear information.

So who really knows WHAT it means, when it might mean 3 or 4 different things?

<point 3>

Quote: Either way, the Unlimited Meld Bid conveys 60+ meld. If you have Double Aces and you want to convey the meld and the aces, use 100. The responsibility is on the Meld/Aces bidder to determine what information the Control might want/need based on the complete bidding history of the hand. It is possible that the Meld/Aces bidder could give 59 to show a bulk of meld, only to find that the opposition has enough juice to run the bid up to a considerably high level. The Meld/Aces bidder still has the capability to bid 100 to give further support to his partner in the way of explicitly representing Double Aces Around.

And, if partner PASSES because he's not sure what you mean, before you can clarify? DO NOT design a system with SO MUCH lack of definition. You note 'want to convey the meld and the aces'...dude, no one should EVER!!! NOT want to say he's got 8 tricks for his partner. So even by your own position...the 'frugal bidder' is utterly WRONG.

Quote:4. Yes, you can give a 59 bid. This is the situation when the Hard Bid is at its least clear. By bidding 59 and then PASS on the following turn, your partner can assume you for at least Single Aces Around or 20 Meld. If you had 30 meld (or more), you could bid 59. Assuming the opponent makes a minimum Control Bid [60], and your partner makes a minimum Control Bid[65], you could perform a Jump Meld Bid[75] (or more).

It's not unclear, it's totally meaningless...absolutely, completely useless. Your partner will have no clue whatsoever, and he's bidding blind. By ALL bidding logic...partner GAVE meld, making you captain...59 IS TO PLAY.

Your insistence that 59 and 60 have some special mystical significance, and they ALWAYS have it, jacks around the entire system. Many of the auctions we're talking about, are uncommon, to be sure, but you're sacrificing core meanings that apply in the 90% cases. ABSOLUTELY, this will lead to misunderstandings.

I think in part, you're trying to impose your notions of 'hard' and 'control' and 'soft' into your system. Those mean nothing to me; they tell me nothing, and they have no value, because they have no *functional* meaning. We've got meld bids, we've got meld-asking, we've got shut-outs...these bids tell us *what they mean within the hand.*

As far as I'm concerned, your insistence on 59 and 60 having these absolute, rigid meanings regardless of auction, so damns your system that I have nothing more to say as long as you continue that position.

[mickmackusa]

(09-02-2013, 11:05 AM)ToreadorElder Wrote:  1. I'm not on the fence. It is an advantage, but with limited utility and an unacceptable cost. The points about limited utility and unacceptable cost are obviously subjective, though.

Limited Utility? I gave the Single Aces Around Bid many more chances to be used. I simply don't follow.
Unacceptable Cost -- There is no coming back from there, no chance of selling this system to you.

(09-02-2013, 11:05 AM)ToreadorElder Wrote:  2. So who really knows WHAT it means, when it might mean 3 or 4 different things?

WHAT it means is as equally unclear as the CABS 58 Unlimited Meld Bid. Clarity of either system's Unlimited Meld Bid is diminished as the proximity of the previous bid is increased. How my system differs is in the clarity of the Bid Category. In my system (when your partner is still an active bidder), 59 is ALWAYS a Support Bid; an advantage in language. In the CABS (when your partner is still an active bidder), 58 and 59 can be either a Support Bid (Meld Bid or Aces Bid) or a Control Bid (Save Bid, Meld-Ask Bid, Checkback Bid) depending on previous bid proximity.

(09-02-2013, 11:05 AM)ToreadorElder Wrote:  

Quote:3. Either way, the Unlimited Meld Bid conveys 60+ meld. If you have Double Aces and you want to convey the meld and the aces, use 100. The responsibility is on the Meld/Aces bidder to determine what information the Control might want/need based on the complete bidding history of the hand. It is possible that the Meld/Aces bidder could give 59 to show a bulk of meld, only to find that the opposition has enough juice to run the bid up to a considerably high level. The Meld/Aces bidder still has the capability to bid 100 to give further support to his partner in the way of explicitly representing Double Aces Around.

And, if partner PASSES because he's not sure what you mean, before you can clarify? DO NOT design a system with SO MUCH lack of definition. You note 'want to convey the meld and the aces'...dude, no one should EVER!!! NOT want to say he's got 8 tricks for his partner. So even by your own position...the 'frugal bidder' is utterly WRONG.

Where is the confusion? If my partner doesn't understand the system, that's my partner's fault, not the system's. Where is the lack of definition I am providing increased utility. I completely agree, I would use 100 every time because it sends the best message. My trepidation would probably be at maximum if I didn't hold a marriage, because if my partner has no marriages and I don't either, we are hanged. I'd still probably give 100.

(09-02-2013, 11:05 AM)ToreadorElder Wrote:  

Quote:4. Yes, you can give a 59 bid. This is the situation when the Hard Bid is at its least clear. By bidding 59 and then PASS on the following turn, your partner can assume you for at least Single Aces Around or 20 Meld. If you had 30 meld (or more), you could bid 59. Assuming the opponent makes a minimum Control Bid [60], and your partner makes a minimum Control Bid[65], you could perform a Jump Meld Bid[75] (or more).

It's not unclear, it's totally meaningless...absolutely, completely useless. Your partner will have no clue whatsoever, and he's bidding blind. By ALL bidding logic...partner GAVE meld, making you captain...59 IS TO PLAY.

Its meaning is minimized, but its Bid Category is clear, it offers support. My partner DOES have clues, I am communicating Support and not communicating Control. The amount of support is unclear; however, I am communicating at the very least either Singles Aces Around or 20 Meld. My system clearly states 59 is NOT a Control Bid. I don't think I can make it any more clear or meaningful.

(09-02-2013, 11:05 AM)ToreadorElder Wrote:  Your insistence that 59 and 60 have some special mystical significance, and they ALWAYS have it, jacks around the entire system. Many of the auctions we're talking about, are uncommon, to be sure, but you're sacrificing core meanings that apply in the 90% cases. ABSOLUTELY, this will lead to misunderstandings.

You can call it special mystical significance, I am calling the bids clear Hard Bids. The fact that 59 and 60 are always Hard Bids doesn't jack the entire system, it adds clarity ...clarity that the CABS cannot provide. New and Veteran players may be relieved to find a system that has truly Hard Bids. In the event where the Hard Bids interfere with a Soft Bid, the adjustments are clear. If you have more situations that I should explain, ask.

(09-02-2013, 11:05 AM)ToreadorElder Wrote:  I think in part, you're trying to impose your notions of 'hard' and 'control' and 'soft' into your system. Those mean nothing to me; they tell me nothing, and they have no value, because they have no *functional* meaning. We've got meld bids, we've got meld-asking, we've got shut-outs...these bids tell us *what they mean within the hand.*

Control Bid is a term voted upon by membership, accurately names its group of bids, and saves me having to type out all the Bid Types included in the group. I created and defined Hard and Soft Bids so I didn't have to type out each time a bid was arrived upon by way of mathematical calculation or not. It's clear you are never going to appreciate my terms, but that is your choice. This comes off looking like a tantrum, which I didn't really need to respond to. There is no point to debate.

(09-02-2013, 11:05 AM)ToreadorElder Wrote:  As far as I'm concerned, your insistence on 59 and 60 having these absolute, rigid meanings regardless of auction, so damns your system that I have nothing more to say as long as you continue that position.

That's a pretty hardcore stance.
The only way I can drop the 59 Unlimited Meld Bid is if it can be replaced by a Meld Bid / Jump Meld Bid concept that is not effected by the 60 threshold. I could be sold on that.
Without a 60 Control Bid, how can a player Lockout Bid with his partner still active without possibly conveying meld?

I need to know, without doubt, the general intention of every bid made. My set of Soft and Hard Bids solve this for me. The quality of my Unlimited Meld Bid is in some cases compromised, but it does not gag the bidder and it does inform the partner. If a player wants to communicate Support while the bidding is under 59, they can, they are not forced to PASS.

[ToreadorElder]

YES, the fact that 59 and 60 have fixed, hard and fast meanings DOES jack the entire system.

It might sound like I'm being hardcore, but IT IS THAT BAD.

[mickmackusa]

(09-02-2013, 06:15 PM)ToreadorElder Wrote:  YES, the fact that 59 and 60 have fixed, hard and fast meanings DOES jack the entire system.

It might sound like I'm being hardcore, but IT IS THAT BAD.

This still feels like a change-fearing tantrum.
So what is your definition of "jack"?
Maybe this is where we differ.
Does it mean that in some rare situations a bid gets shifted by 1 point?

Example 1: A player wants to Control Bid, but his partner is still Active and the previous bid is 58. The Soft Bid of 59 becomes 60.
Example 2: A player wants to Single Aces Bid, and the previous bid is 58. The Soft Bid of 60 becomes 59.
Example 3: A player wants to Meld Bid 20, and the previous bid is 58. The Soft Bid of 65 becomes 59.

I previously thought "jack" meant "damage or ruin", not "improve by adjusting".
Otherwise, I would welcome someone to "jack" my car.

I am trying to develop a new bidding system.
Your input is a luxury; I want your input, but I do not need it to proceed.
If you are dead set against my system, I'll have to go it without you.
Thanks for what you've provided up to this point.