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Jump Bids Continued
#1
This is a new thread based on a previous thread:

http://www.powerpinochle.com/forum/showt...php?tid=35


Let's talk only about Jump Bids. In YOUR opinion, break it down for newbies in basic form.

What are Jump Bids and what do they mean?

Don't bring up complications, problems or exceptions. Start with the basics and if someone uses those basics and runs into a difficult situation, then they can post it here and we can discuss it.
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#2
First off, from the Glassary:

Jump Bid: A bid of 10 more than the previous bid (over 60); indicates thirty or more meld. (example: jump bid from 60 to 70)

Double Jump: A bid of 20 more than the previous bid (over 60); indicates fifty or more meld. (example: double jump bid from 60 to 80)

So what is a +15 bid, "Jump and a Half"?:
"A bid of 15 more than the previous bid (over 60); indicates more than 30 but less than 50 meld. (example: double jump bid from 60 to 75)

I went to college to be a mathematician. I play a lot of different card games. I am not asking these questions to be petty. I notice situations that the rules and definitions do not cover. So, if +10 and +20 have an agreed upon meaning, so should +15.

And we need a name for those bids under 65 that are +2 or more over the previous bids, if these are not also "Jump Bids".

What about a bid from the 50s up to 65. 53 - 65 or 55 - 65 or 57 - 65? More than +1 over the previous bid so it shows something, but these are not a "Jump" or "Double Jump" from the definitions stated above.
Rick Hall
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#3
To expand on richard's point: why do you need 50 to go from 60 to 80...ESPECIALLY if 75 isn't defined? That's a very large meld gap. What if the prior bid is 65...does 75 still show 30?

And how did the auction get there? If my partner opens 65 in first seat, I have every reason to bid 75 with 30. If the auction goes 60-65-pass to me...I'm not so sure I can, with a bare 30. Partner may be stretching a bit. I think it depends on what you think of your partner. I know too many insane bidders where they need almost everything I have to make, or similarly, when they have next to nothing (but do have meld) and are counting on me to take 5-6 tricks. I jump to 75, we go set for 80. I pass, we may set them because they go to 70, and that's too high.

And even 60-70 (that is, RHO opens 60, and I jump to 70) probably can't be a basic 30, as we have no idea if partner can sustain 75.

So there's nothing BUT complications, problems, and exceptions.
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#4
Oh good. Just what I want to hear.
And with no convention card to agree about, your partner at Yahoo, even if he is NOT a bidding maniac, is bidding K-S to my Roth-Stone. Or Acol, Precision, the Blue Club, or some concoction of his own.
Rick Hall
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#5
Just a few of my thoughts...

I like the jump meld bid structure that I've seen on this site.
+10 = 30 meld
+15 = 40 meld
+20 = 50 meld
+25 = 60 meld
...

For anyone who has a penchant for formulas, this will do the trick:
Jump Bid = [Previous Bid] + (([Rounded Meld] - 10) / 2 )

Keywords:
[Previous Bid] = the previous bid which is greater than or equal to 60.
[Rounded Meld]* = your meld rounded to the nearest ten.
* -> if you have a more complex way of grouping meld based on additional factors, then apply that here.

My opinion is that any jump bid (a bid after a bid of at least 60 AND greater than a minimum bid) that is called while your partner is still in the bidding IS A MELD BID. Any jump bid that is called with your partner out of the bidding is obviously not a meld bid and suggests a more direct route to your maximum bid.

I personally don't have any use for the terms like single or double jump bid.
Nor do I need access to the term septuple jump bid when I have 90 meld.

Generally, I don't feel strongly about this topic. If someone has a way to improve what I have mentioned, I'm very likely to adopt it.
It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing all your life. -- Mickey Mantle
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#6
You're asking an impossible question. You're asking what my jump to 4 clubs means over your 2 hearts...without regard to the bidding that went on before that...and assert that no matter what the route is, my bid always means the same thing. Or, over your 1NT, you're limiting my options to 3NT and 5NT...what's 4NT?

What we *can* do is to build a framework where a player can work through the situation, to make the right bid...or at least one where the meaning is reasonably clear to both the bidder and his partner.
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#7
This is good discussion. I need to find time to continue working on the glossary and to post more. To Richard's initial post in this thread:

You made me laugh. Your post is completely logical so the "jump and a half" just cracked me up.

I'm not sure where I found the phrase double jump bid. I think it may have been from the book that is no longer in print. I used his glossary as a starting point for this site, since he was a National Pinochle Association player, and my assumption was that if it was in his book, the NPA players must be using this terminology and it must be somewhat mainstream. I will admit though that I have never heard anyone use the phrase double jump bid in any game that I can remember, but I am admittedly not a pinochle expert. I will have to make a note to delete that. When I learned of jump bids, I only ever learned of +10 (above 60) equalling 30+ meld. Perhaps the chart/formula Mick posted is a logical idea for jump bids.

Question for TE (or anyone else playing at the higher levels):

In the middle to low levels, I have found that most players don't know what a +10 bid is (over 60), so I won't use a jump bid unless I have a minimum declarer type hand, in case I get stuck because my partner doesn't know jump bidding. Since you play among the highest rated players on Yahoo, what do most players, in your opinion, view jump bids to mean/be?

As far as jump bidding goes, TE makes a good point that unless you have to know what a jump to 60/65/70 etc. means before accurately using a jump bid correctly. I want to keep this thread on the jump bid question and I have started a new thread to talk strictly about opening or jumping to 60+ here:

http://www.powerpinochle.com/forum/showt...hp?tid=469

Also TE has my mindset on this. I want us to create a framework, but not just one that we think is perfect if it is totally different from how everyone else plays. There has to be some way to balance between a good logical framework and how most players are already bidding. Then we need to post in online on the site to finally have a definitive starting point (framework) for players to refer to. There is nothing on the internet yet that does that for pinochle.
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#8
Quote:My opinion is that any jump bid (a bid after a bid of at least 60 AND greater than a minimum bid) that is called while your partner is still in the bidding IS A MELD BID. Any jump bid that is called with your partner out of the bidding is obviously not a meld bid and suggests a more direct route to your maximum bid.

Partner bids 53, RHO jumps to 65. Is your 75 showing meld, or is it to play? Given partner's 30 meld, 75 is a fairly common upper limit, like 65 is when partner gives 20.

BOTH interpretations make sense...so that would leave your partner hanging and unsure. (There's no point in trying to decide how much meld a bid shows, if we're not even sure it shows meld! Smile)

That's where the principle mick stated comes in. Is it perfect? No, but it's simple to remember and simple to apply, and it's consistent throughout many similar auctions.
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#9
What happens if you want to meld bid 30 to your partner but the last bid was 58?

A. Tough cookies, PASS.

B. 59 is "unlimited meld", but could be perceived as a take bid. This also keeps you in the running when the bidding goes into the 5pt-increment zone where you can give an accurate jump meld bid.

C. +3 increments would be 65, but that could be perceived as a take bid, right?

Scenario: 53, 54, 58
You are dealer. Opponents have ~70 meld according to the bids. Partner is hoping for a meld bid to accompany his take bid. Maybe he's got no chance of winning the bid; maybe this is a bad scenario to set up.

Do you PASS and sleep easy?
It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing all your life. -- Mickey Mantle
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#10
"59 is "unlimited meld", but could be perceived as a take bid."

What's a "take" bid?

[The big problem for the beginner is the rarity of the situation. I cannot think of a single instance on Yahoo where Partner made some leap to the stratosphere and then told me "I was showing 30 meld. Why didn't you ..."]
Rick Hall
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