Bidding System for Newbies (Discussion)

[rakbeater]

Comment, make adjustments, explain your reasoning. Remember, this will be for a completely new player. Consider these basic guidelines for a new player to learn, to build upon as they become more familiar with the game. This is for a player that hasn't learned how to count tricks yet.

Opening Bids: (These are the basic bidding rules if no one has made a bid yet.)

50 - Want the bid; or if the first player to bid passes, you are "saving" your partner with a minimum strength hand or better. (need to teach newbie how to count tricks and define a biddable hand and minimum strength required to make a "save" bid)

(Bids of 51 to 59 are called Meld Bids - because they are showing meld and do not mean the player wants the bid)

51 - Aces Around
52 - 16 to 24 meld
53 - 26 to 34 meld
54 - 36 to 44 meld
55 - 46 to 54 meld
56 - 56 to 64 meld
57 - 66 to 76 meld
58 - 76 + meld (unlimited meld)
59 - Double Aces

60 - Want the bid (like 50) but have 30 or more meld in your hand (counting a run) so you are jumping to 60 to keep your opponents from sharing information through bidding. (As a beginner, if you want to play it safe, only jump to 60 with 35 or more meld. At least until you learn how to count tricks which indicates the strength of a hand.)


Response bids: (These are the basic bidding rules after the bidding has started)

+1 - Same as an opening bid of 50, either you want the bid, or you are "saving" your partner. (A save bid is needed when your partner makes a Meld Bid and the opponent after your partner passes.)

(+2 to +9, if the bid is under 60 is a Meld Bid)

+2 - same meaning as 52
+3 - same meaning as 53
+4 - same meaning as 54
Etc.

Final note:
If the bidding gets to you and the minimum bid you can make is 65 or greater (bidding over 60 goes by fives), a +5 bid means the same as a +1 bid and a +10 bid is a Meld Bid indicating 30+ meld.

[ToreadorElder]

Maybe a bit much for a newbie, but...use effective meld. 16 with no aces, is NOT worth 20. You'd also require a pass with, say, AAAxx AAAxx AAAxx xxxxx with 14 meld in those x's.

Also, I hate, hate, HATE that definition of a 60 bid. It's AWFUL. It's totally anti-partnership. And don't say, well, it's just for newbies...what one learns just starting out, shapes how one plays for a VERY long time. *Meld* has absolutely NOTHING to do with a 60 bid; I have NO PROBLEM with my partner bidding 60 on, say,

AAATTKKKQQQ AAAxxx Ax x

That's 12 meld...so what? It's a 5 loser hand (lose 2 tricks in the 6 card suit) in that massive trump suit...and probably a 3 or 4 *winner* hand in anything else. I'll take my chances that my partner has 10 meld, because if he does I make 60. (Note, this hand *can't* count on partner's hand taking ANY tricks.)

And you CANNOT have 60 mean the hand above, as well as a semi-random (but reasonably good) hand with 30 meld. That is TERRIBLE system design.

Finally: work through *everything* related to the 60 bid as you've defined it. What do you do when partner bids 65? What do you do when an opponent bids 65, and partner passes? You're screwed when LHO bids 70 and RHO bids 75. EVERYTHING ABOUT THE 60 BID, as you've defined it, leads to TOTAL GUESSWORK at a high level.

[rakbeater]

The ideal situation is that you teach trick counting first to define hands, but a person has to play some games before being able to relate trick counting to bidding. Chicken or the egg? Any beginner's system is going to have gaps. I'm currently teaching a new pinochle player who is very intelligent, so I am hopeful he can help fill in the gaps or give advice on a better way to learn as a newbie. It's been a long time since I've been a beginner.

I'll be working on a basic trick counting system for beginners shortly. That will also have gaps. I'm looking for ways to improve the systems or if you think a completely new system to teach newbies is better I would love to see it. I can promise that I won't tear it down using extreme examples, but try to use the best of it. Any other comments out there?

[ToreadorElder]

Adjusted meld is an easy concept...just add the count of aces you have in hand, to the meld you have. That'll work for a beginner; as time goes on, you can introduce the notion of aces-at-risk...if you're not declarer, then with AAAXXXXX, at least one, and sometimes 2 of those aces are at risk of being ruffed.

And you don't have to teach trick counting before defining hands. Simply give some core rules about what's required to ask your partner for meld...otherwise, you give meld first. And the core expectations I posted some time back. These principles lead into trick counting later.

[Steve]

Gotta agree with the OP on meld bids. Nice post. I open with 60 a lot, true it locks you into your options, but in most hands it removes your opponents options as well. More often than not, an opening 60 bid will win.

[richardpaulhall]

Opening Bid: 51; Questions From A New Player

Does making an first bid of 52-58 -deny- "Aces Around"?
I assume with Triple or Quad "Aces Around" a bid of "59" would be sufficient to enlighten my partner.

I am in first seat, or second when RHO (Right Hand Opponent) has passed, and I bid "51", showing "Aces Around" and denying "Double Aces Around" since I did not bid "59".

Am I promising a marriage, let alone a playable trump suit?
If not, is partner -expected- to bid light to "save" us?
If I -must- have a biddable trump suit, what should one have to bid "51".

Does 51 imply "power" or merely a constructive bid, partially describing my hand. And why not another conventional meaning, "6+ aces" or "4 aces outside of my trump suit". Or is "51" simply -informative-, partner knows he/she can get to me in any suit.

Having bid 51 and getting a positive response from partner, what is my next bid?
Having 30 meld, is my next bid +3 over partner's bid?

[ToreadorElder]

Does making an first bid of 52-58 -deny- "Aces Around"?

No. An aces bid of 51 does not, to me, deny more meld which you intend to show with your next bid, but a sequence like this (with me giving the aces first):

51 - pass - 52 - 60 -
70 by me

This shows aces around from the first bid, and about 35 meld from the second bid (to jump from 60 to 70). HOWEVER, it also has to show a reasonably good trump suit because partner just saved.

So if you have aces, and meld, but don't have a trump suit, you can't plan to make 2 bids to show both aspects of your hand. So you pick one bid to make, intending to pass. If the meld bid would show 30+, then it's pretty automatic that you have to give the meld...it's far higher than partner could expect, and this is more likely to be critical.

I assume with Triple or Quad "Aces Around" a bid of "59" would be sufficient to enlighten my partner.

Probably more importantly, he'll understand what you mean, and he knows he *must* save. But, has anyone here ever seen triple aces? One guy posted odds of about 3 million to 1 against... And quad aces is...forget it. Quite probably never been legitimately done, as it's about 5 trillion to 1 against.

I am in first seat, or second when RHO (Right Hand Opponent) has passed, and I bid "51", showing "Aces Around" and denying "Double Aces Around" since I did not bid "59".

Am I promising a marriage, let alone a playable trump suit?
If not, is partner -expected- to bid light to "save" us?
If I -must- have a biddable trump suit, what should one have to bid "51".

No, you're not promising a marriage. At least I don't, and most better players don't. The information from the aces bid...it shows meld AND tricks...is just too important.

And yes. After an aces bid, or any meld bid, if the intervening opponent passes, the bidder's partner is in save position.

Does 51 imply "power" or merely a constructive bid, partially describing my hand. And why not another conventional meaning, "6+ aces" or "4 aces outside of my trump suit". Or is "51" simply -informative-, partner knows he/she can get to me in any suit.

There are people who play that 51 shows 10-ish meld and, say, 5+ aces (assuming no aces around). So that would be the constructive bid you mention. I don't like that; I believe strongly that it should ONLY be used for aces around. Pretty sure I covered my reasons for that elsewhere.

Having bid 51 and getting a positive response from partner, what is my next bid?
Having 30 meld, is my next bid +3 over partner's bid?

Yes.

[deadeye61]

Here's my two cent.

51 - Aces Around - only if player has a marriage & total of 16 meld.
Lots of players get excited because they partner has aces. In up with bid, run 15 + marriage = 17 partner with aces + marriage = 12 total 29 for 60 or 65. Now you need 31 or 36 to save.
52 - 18 meld plus 16 meld is to dangerous - all cards are potential loser.
53 - 26 to 34 meld works.
54 - 36 to 44 meld.
Watch out for these 3 situations: 1. Double Jacks 2. Double Queens 3. Double Kings All these are potential loser plus Kings are point cards. I was taught to bid 30 or may be 40 because your potential of saving this is very high without taking the bid. 85 to 90% of time you save your meld.
60 bid is OK with 35 meld, Each hand I assume my partner has 10 meld. My formula for bidding to make trump is: My hand + 10. So this gives me the maximum I can bid.
Saving bids, this is a good one. This is how I was taught. Only bid if you a marriage and 10 or more meld. This is were the 10 meld rule works. If you bid with a marriage and less then 10 meld, your partner may assume you can make board. The potential is low, but your may have a weak run in something or big meld back to you. And if your partner saves you and you don't want it, but have a marriage and 20 plus meld. GIVE YOUR PARTNER A MELD BID. You do this because your partner may have a 5 card run (15) in hearts and 8 cards in another suit with marriage but no run. If you don't make the meld bid, you force your partner to come in the 5 card run so he can make the board.
I'm confused about final note. So here's something, A JUMP BID. When you have 30 plus meld and can't get your meld bid in before 60 and your partner has bidded to bring in trump go 10 over the last bid. ( if 60 go 70, if 65 go 75 ) hopefully your partner knows what a jump bid is.
Semper Fi, deadeye61

[ToreadorElder]

If you give aces and partner goes overboard, it's HIS fault. Aces bids are far, far too informative to NOT make them when you can, UNLESS you a) have no marriage or would have to name some horrible trump suit like AKQ, b) have *too many* aces, so you're worried partner has total junk and will make the cautious pass, and c) you're in *save* position. If you're in first seat, 3 players have to pass.

I agree that dbl jacks, queens, and kings can be hard to save, but I disagree with the rest. The fear expressed is that partner can't save...well if he can't save in his best suit, do you really expect to save in the opponents' best suit? Naming trump is generally worth at least 5 points, and on really shapely hands can be worth 15.

It makes no sense that the 'only' thing that's a jump bid, is +10, and that it always shows 30. How do you show 40? Is 30 actually *enough* to jump from 65 to 75, say in an auction that starts 52-53-65 to you? You force partner to 80, and that may be too high. It's a close call, I'll grant: you can be wrong bidding or passing.

Finally, on save bids...IMO that's just too restrictive, to require 10 meld. Partner *should not* assume you have anything past a minimal trump suit, which I define as TTKQJJ. A save bid is insurance against the case that partner has a good hand, enough meld to get onto the board, and no trump suit. Again, it's a tradeoff. Partner can't bid 51 over your save with certain hands where it would be better if he did...but there are also plenty of hands where he will have meld, but no marriage at all, or his trump suit candidates are worse than yours.

But I do strongly agree that Saver *and* Dealer should give meld. Pass-50-pass to you...and you've got a solid 20? Bid it. A meld bid DOES NOT promise a trump suit. Yes, partner *is* allowed to pass; with something balanced and a bare minimum save suit:



would be a reasonable pass, as he doesn't care what trump will be. Of course it won't work every time, but I would rather take my best guess with all the information I can have, rather than guessing blindly.

[rakbeater]

bump. I want to revisit this.