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responding to a save bid with a meld bid, was bot wrong to pass? - Printable Version

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responding to a save bid with a meld bid, was bot wrong to pass? - marya - 03-11-2019

I got a complaint from a user who kindly saved the hand history for me. Here's the hand history:

Code:
% Format "PPN 1.0"
% Site "worldofcardgames.com"
% Date "2019.03.08"
% ID "15520539256391"
% Players "N-Bo E-R2 S-IH W-Ti"
% tableid "417fc72a-fe82-49c9-8974-37a669ced25a"

[GameScores "71:0"]
[Deal "S:CTTQJJDATKKQQSAATQJHATKJ CATKQDATKKQJSATKQJJHATTK CAAATKQQDATJJSATKQQHATKJ CKKJJDATQJSTKKJHAKQQQQJJ"]
[Auction "W:Pass 50 Pass 55 - Pass"]
[Contract "S 55 C"]
[Melds "4:CDKKQQSH 30:CAKQDAKQJSAKQHAK 46:CAKQDAJJSAKQQHA 6:CJDJSJHKQJ"]
[Play "S"]
AH JH KH KH S3
AS JS TS JS S2
AD QD KD QD S2
QC KC TC AC E3
AH JH KH JH E2
AD JD TD QD E2
AS QS KS QS E2
JD TD AD QD W2
AH TH TH KH W4
JD TD KD JD N2
AH TH TH QH N3
JC QC TC JC S1
KS TS AS QS N3
JC KC AC JC S2
TS KS AS JS N3
TC TC AC KC S4
QS JH JS KS E1
KD KC QH KD S3
AC QH QC TS S2
QC QH AD TD S4
[MeldScores "50:36"]
[PlayScores "34:16"]
[Result "SAVED"]
[HandScores "84:0"]

Here's my verbal description:

Dealer's left passes (which was strange to me, but let's ignore this - dealer's left was not a bot, so I cannot fix this!).

Dealer's partner makes a save bid. This is their hand. So, not a declarer hand! It's a save bid. Obviously, the dealer cannot be sure about this.

Dealer's right passes.

The (human) dealer has 46 meld, and gives a meld bid, +5.

Then the dealer's partner, my bot, passes.

Questions:

1) Was the dealer correct in giving a meld bid? The human dealer complained to me because the bot did not respond with +1. However, my thought is that in this scenario, there is no reason to give a meld bid. Is there? How should the bot (or a human partner) "read" this?

2) Did the bot make the ultimate betrayal by responding to this meld bid with a pass? Should a partner always bid +1 in this scenario? By "this scenario" I mean: both opponents have passed, first partner has made a bid of 50 or let's say 51, and teammate made a meld bid. Does it matter that this might have been a save bid? That is, should the situation differ if neither partner is the dealer?

Thank you for any feedback!


RE: responding to a save bid with a meld bid, was bot wrong to pass? - ToreadorElder - 04-08-2019

1.  I wouldn't give meld with that South hand.  No point.  He's got 40 meld;  meld is not the issue.  He has 20 in his own hand in clubs...at least 5 tricks in clubs and should be 6, plus 3 side aces.  What would be better...to play in South's clubs, or in a 6 card run in any other suit in North's hand?  Sure, the run's 10 more points, but South's hand doesn't need much to pull 31 in clubs.  


The other side is this.  With good bidders, these sequences are QUITE different:

1.
pass - 50 - pass - 51
52 by North, 53 by South 

2.
pass - 50 - pass - 51
52 by North, 56 by South 

3.
pass - 50 - pass - 54
55 by North, 56 by South 


Sequence 1 says South has a very strong offensive hand.  North opens with just a save;  South's 51 is just a checkback at that point.  North's 52 shows a real hand...a hand that would bid 50 in first position.  So South's 53 shows a better one...8+ trump or a big 2 suiter or the like.  

Sequence 2 starts the same.  Save bid, checkback, showing a real hand.  South's 56 says, pard, meld is not a problem...but I didn't show it first cuz I have something pretty good too.  South can have, say, a 7 card AATxxxx trump suit.  

Sequence 3, South is just showing meld with his first bid and thereby DENYING strong interest in playing the hand.  55 by North is "well ok I can play it" but it doesn't show a lot more than his save bid.  56 by South says something...OK.  But not necessarily a bunch.  South could have:

AS AS KS KS QS QS JS AH KH KH QH JH AC TC QC  JC TD KD JD JD

2 aces, 7 card length...North hasn't promised that much of a suit.

2a.  Should the bot ALWAYS rebid after a meld bid?  NO.  
2b.  Should the bot rebid here?  Yes.  First:  South's shown 50...lying, but doesn't matter.  If South gives 30 or more, then North is safe to rebid for a bit...and the auction shouldn't go a lot higher.  North's hand isn't great but he's not promising great.  I don't love that trump suit, but hey, ATxxxx is better than Axxxxx or TTxxxx.  
2c.  NOW...here, what SHOULD North bid given the sequence at the table?  II gotta give 2 answers.  In a well-oiled partnership, North should bid *57*.  There's no need to show meld...whatsoever.  N/S are safe there, through 70 since South's shown 50.  So the difference between 56 and 57 is strength.  57 DENIES playability...trump suit is 6, maybe a bad 7, no other factors enhancing playability.  North can play it, or he's just as happy to be dummy.  56 shows "ok, I'm at least reasonably comfortable playing it".  

With the bot, you probably can't assume this distinction would be recognized.  I'd just have the bot make the minimum bid.

Now, note that specifically pass-50-pass-52 is somewhat more complicated.  Give North this slight tweak:

TC TC QC JC JC AD AD KD KD QD JD AS AS TS QS JS AH TH KH QH

UGH.  North/South may WELL be at their limit RIGHT NOW.  North's got 6 meld in diamonds, and only 5 tricks;  that's 18 total.  South gave 20, so N/S is only at 38...LONG way to go.  Second, North has 5 tricks as declarer OR dummy, so if South's got any kind of trump suit, those tricks are LIKELY to be needed.


RE: responding to a save bid with a meld bid, was bot wrong to pass? - ToreadorElder - 04-08-2019

(03-11-2019, 09:16 AM)marya Wrote:  Here's my verbal description:

Dealer's left passes (which was strange to me, but let's ignore this - dealer's left was not a bot, so I cannot fix this!).

Dealer's partner makes a save bid. This is their hand. So, not a declarer hand! It's a save bid. Obviously, the dealer cannot be sure about this.

Dealer's right passes.

The (human) dealer has 46 meld, and gives a meld bid, +5.
I said to only give 40, but yeah, the adjusted meld says you could give 50.  50's right in a competitive auction, and it's ok here;  I often just give 40 to have a weeeee bit more wiggle room.