Power Pinochle Forums

Hi all,

I'd like to know if there's a consensus on how you'd want your cards sorted for an online game.

At World of Card Games, I didn't put any thought into how cards are sorted in your hand. I'm a relative newcomer to Pinochle, and it didn't make any difference to me where my trump was, so I never noticed a problem when testing the game. Here's how cards are currently sorted, according to suit and then ranked within suit with Aces to the right:


I've had some immediate feedback from a player that they'd like the cards sorted with Aces to the left. And once trump is known, the cards should be resorted so that the trump suit cards are always placed left-most in the hand. So in the above case, Hearts should be to the left, then I'd rearrange by suit color in some standard way.

Just curious to know what you expect.

For me, consistency is of high importance.  I don't think I want the suits to be shuffled around mid-hand based on the declared trump.

Regarding suit order, in the offline games of my youth, I always used alternating suit colors.  (Sorting suits by Bridge hierarchy may be internationally known, but it doesn't provide the benefit of color separation.)   For consistency, I went on to always sort my suits as S,D,C,H.  Then when I started into online games (and Yahoo was my only option), I converted to their C,D,S,H.  Beyond the benefit of separating suits by color, I suppose from a computational standpoint it makes logical sense to use C,D,S,H as the red suits are alphabetized and the black suits are alphabetized.  Power Pinochle has adopted this, and I think this is as good as it gets.

Regarding rank order, I always read left-to-right with strength-to-weakness.  I do appreciate that you have at least positioned the Tens between the Aces & Kings.  Developers with a poor understanding of pinochle are immediately exposed when the Tens are placed outside of the rank hierarchy.

I'll be honest, I haven't had time to trial your software, but I am a little concerned with the arcing fan of the held cards -- does this negatively impact the available screen space?  This was something I was considering when making the Hand Animator.

As a general question, I wonder what most people think about avatars at the table.  How much value does it add?  If preferred, how much freedom comes with it? a finite pool of in-house images? how many images is enough to satisfy? or may users upload?

I'm with Mick on this topic.

Hi Mick,

>>  I don't think I want the suits to be shuffled around mid-hand based on the declared trump.

That is interesting, I've made note of it - this may be something that has to be individually tuned and there's no real consensus. In the Euchre game at World of Card Games, the trump suit is always shifted to the right after trump is chosen. To me it makes no difference at all, but apparently some people like having their trump placed left-most or right-most. I've never had a comment or complaint about this until I heard from my player/friend who is a Pinochle enthusiast and wanted trump sorted to the left.

Like you, I do want to see my suits sorted out by alternating color. However, I'm not organized enough to notice whether it's Clubs left-most or whatever. In real life when I do it, it's just a random black/red pattern (e.g. when playing Spades I don't have any habit of putting the Spades cards at any specific location, as long as they are ranked and sorted red/black). The computer does it automatically and consistently, though.

>> I always read left-to-right with strength-to-weakness

Thank you, again I'm making a note of that. So it's clear, I won't be jumping to make changes immediately... I'd prefer to get more feedback before making sure that any changes are really desirable. I'm hoping to make some performance improvements too.

>>  I am a little concerned with the arcing fan of the held cards -- does this negatively impact the available screen space?

I don't think there's any problem... haven't had complaints. A lot depends on your screen size and resolution, of course. Here's a view of the entire playspace (minus an ad to the right):


>> As a general question, I wonder what most people think about avatars at the table.  How much value does it add?  If preferred, how much freedom comes with it? a finite pool of in-house images? how many images is enough to satisfy? or may users upload?

Well... my impression is that people like them and if anything they want more. I have had one person tell me they thought it cluttered the page, but ... I don't see that, myself (of course, I am biased - I think they make the site more entertaining). The site gives you a default avatar (a fox) and it is up to you to switch if you want. There are about 200 to choose from. No uploads, however - that would be too much of a maintenance nightmare.

FYI It appears to me that most registered players pick an avatar other than the default, as do many guests, so this gives me an idea that people like customizing their appearance. Or else they really dislike the default one!

BTW I have it on my to-do list to give people the option of a very bare-bones experience - lightweight, no animations, and very simplified graphics. It's just not something I've had time for.

Marya

(08-07-2015, 07:29 AM)mickmackusa Wrote: [ -> ]For me, consistency is of high importance.  I don't think I want the suits to be shuffled around mid-hand based on the declared trump.

I agree.  This will also create bad habits for people who learn online and then play in person, as shuffling your hand after playing a particular suit is frowned upon because it's an obvious signal you're out of said suit.

(08-07-2015, 07:29 AM)mickmackusa Wrote: [ -> ]Regarding suit order, in the offline games of my youth, I always used alternating suit colors.  (Sorting suits by Bridge hierarchy may be internationally known, but it doesn't provide the benefit of color separation.)   For consistency, I went on to always sort my suits as S,D,C,H.  Then when I started into online games (and Yahoo was my only option), I converted to their C,D,S,H.  Beyond the benefit of separating suits by color, I suppose from a computational standpoint it makes logical sense to use C,D,S,H as the red suits are alphabetized and the black suits are alphabetized.  Power Pinochle has adopted this, and I think this is as good as it gets.

Regarding rank order, I always read left-to-right with strength-to-weakness.  I do appreciate that you have at least positioned the Tens between the Aces & Kings.  Developers with a poor understanding of pinochle are immediately exposed when the Tens are placed outside of the rank hierarchy.

When playing in person, I always hold hearts to the left, then spades, then diamonds, and clubs on the right.  There was no particular reason - that's just how I did it.  As said in response to another post, high cards were on the left and lower cards on the right in each suit.  In addition, the cards to the left were behind the cards to the right (so if I stacked them face-down as I held them in my hand, the hearts would be on top).  Again, no particular reason - that's just how I've always done it.

(08-07-2015, 07:29 AM)mickmackusa Wrote: [ -> ]I'll be honest, I haven't had time to trial your software, but I am a little concerned with the arcing fan of the held cards -- does this negatively impact the available screen space?  This was something I was considering when making the Hand Animator.

Honestly Mick, I didn't have an issue with it.  And it made it seem more realistic, as opposed to the 1980s-like graphics used by most online card sites.

(08-07-2015, 07:29 AM)mickmackusa Wrote: [ -> ]As a general question, I wonder what most people think about avatars at the table.  How much value does it add?  If preferred, how much freedom comes with it? a finite pool of in-house images? how many images is enough to satisfy? or may users upload?

I'm not really a big fan of avatars - but I won't object if they're there.

(08-07-2015, 10:27 AM)marya Wrote: [ -> ]FYI It appears to me that most registered players pick an avatar other than the default, as do many guests, so this gives me an idea that people like customizing their appearance. Or else they really dislike the default one!

I only changed because the fox was a little too feminine for me.  As a social experiment, it would be interesting to change the default to the most popular one and see how many people change away from that one.  Maybe people just don't like to be "normal."

>> I only changed because the fox was a little too feminine for me. As a social experiment, it would be interesting to change the default to the most popular one and see how many people change away from that one. Maybe people just don't like to be "normal."

Funny but I never thought of the fox as being feminine - just sly (with slitted eyes). But the other day, a guy wrote me that he had changed the fox to a cowboy icon specifically for that reason!

Even so, the default avatar is still the most popular one, which indicates most people don't know how to change the avatar or do not care. Of the top 10 other popular avatars, 7 are "aliens" such as green fuzzball. The aliens are the ones at the very top of the avatar list, which tells me most people who change their avatars are too lazy to search through all the available ones. BTW I don't really keep a list of "active" users. Some of the popularity of the default avatar may be due to a lot of inactive users who played at the site a year ago and haven't visited since.

mick, VERY few bridge players I've ever known, use bridge suit ordering in their own hands. The reason is very, very simple: tooooo bloody easy to renege, or at least get an exposed card (which can at times be even more damaging).

Tigre: be warned. If you always sort the suits in the same order, this is something that can (and will) be picked up if you ever play live, and with serious opponents. I've kibitzed bridge pros from time to time; I definitely had numerous opportunities to play against them, back in the day. One subtle lesson I learned: give NOTHING away. As much as possible, play every card in the same manner and at the same tempo. Bid in a consistent tempo. Keep facial expression neutral. As far as sorting hands...I saw my uncle sort into suits...but NOT into rank within the suits. Same thing. Play the 2nd card from the left or right, you have 1 higher in the suit, or one lower. Gives away information. AND, if we're getting really serious, it can be considered giving *unauthorized* information to your partner...essentially, giving a signal. This is cheating.

Of course, playing online this doesn't matter. So strength order because I think it's convenient. I think High Cards First; they're the important ones. Ergo, they get pride of position...on the left. That's probably cultural. Elsewhere, it might be on the right. This might be a preference option for down the line.

ToreadorElder,

>> If you always sort the suits in the same order, this is something that can (and will) be picked up if you ever play live

I've only played a few in-person games of cards, but I had heard that sorting your cards can give signals and you need to be careful about the way you do this. So that's a very good point.

>> That's probably cultural. Elsewhere, it might be on the right

I learned Spades online, and the site put high cards on the right, for whatever reason... I do know some sites give you the option of sorting left or right. It kind of surprises me that people care one way or the other; as long as it's ordered, I'm okay with it.

Marya

It's a matter of habit, I suspect; certainly there is no implicit reason to prefer one or the other. That's as opposed to NOT sorting them at all; that does create implicit advantages and disadvantages.

But that makes it a good user-definable preference, like the deck.

(08-07-2015, 07:29 AM)mickmackusa Wrote: [ -> ](Sorting suits by Bridge hierarchy may be internationally known, but it doesn't provide the benefit of color separation.)

I only mentioned the Bridge suit hierarchy as an alternative way to order the held cards so that I could express the disadvantage of two same-color suits side by side.  I have never heard of anyone sorting their hand this way either.